Vintage style tuners as good as modern ones?

[Jeremiah]

I want to replace the vintage style tuners on a guitar with better ones, basically because the old ones are fairly poor quality and are hard to tune accurately. (Plus, this is a 12-string, and I could do with all the help I can get keeping it in tune.)

However, I'm not sure I have the skill, the patience, or the tools to enlarge the tuner holes to fit modern style tuners, so I'm really looking for something that can use the vintage size holes but be as smooth, accurate, and generally nice as a good set of modern tuners. It would be a bonus if they were also locking, though that isn't essential.

 

[bpmorton777]

what kind of guitar is it (brand/model) if it's real old you might be de-valuing the guitar if you change out the hardware. Yes modern tuners will work better but they also make vintage style tuners that could replace those.

Brian

 

[-CB-]

Tuner 101 -


1.  Tuners do not slip.  They cannot slip.  They will not "keep in tune" better than others.  However, some really smooth nice quality tuners are a joy to tune with.

2.  Tuning problems are nut slot related, stringing related, bridge related, or tuning method related, in the vast vast majority of cases, and in no instance are "tuner slipping" related.

3. Popular solid body guitar tuners come in two basic flavors:  Ring and worm press bushing, ring and worm threaded bushing.  There are also direct screw tuners (Steinberger) and there are some obsolete planetary gear tuners.

4. Tuning smoothness comes from two factors - alignment of the post (and ring gear) with the worm gear and body of the tuner, and the overall quality of the finish and workmanship.

5. Press fit bushing tuners do not hold the shaft in alignment as well as threaded bushing tuners.  Threaded bushing tuners are the "Grover" type and although some look "vintage" they're only that in looks, not in function.

6. Using minimal string wrap on the post will result in better tuning stability.

7. Properly cut nut and bridge slots will result in better tuning stability.

8. Locking tuners were developed for dive bomb whammy bar users, to keep minimal wrap on the post, and with that minimal wrap, keep the string from flying off when dive bombing.  They dont stay "in tune" better than other tuners, just allow you to dive bomb without a Floyd Rose nut.  Some folks say they allow easier "minimal wrap" and thus make for easier and better stringing... thats a sort of co-lateral advantage.

9.  Make a sharp bend in wound strings a half inch back from where you need to cut them, in order to preserve wrap integrity.

10.  You can tuna guitar, but you cant tuna fish.

 

[rockskate4x]

when he says that the "tuner slips" he is probably talking about the winding around the tuners, thus the need for them to be locking.

 

[Dan025]

i agree with CB locking tuners provide the option for minimal wrap and little else, if your strings slip a bit you wrapped them wrong, just my opinion. as long as the vintage style is smooth you'll be ok. unless like cb said you do dive bombs with the tremolo bar. if you take all the tension off the wrappings especially if you have an excessive number of turns on there they may fall off and/or might not settle in exactly the same. and if you try minimal wrappings on a standard tuner it might slip a bit.

if you look in dan erlewines (sp?) book on guitar repair he gives tips on wrapping the strings and truth be told it only takes a couple turns. and if done neatly should take a fair amount of abuse from the trem but not necessarily all out dive bombs.

also the more your ear learns to hear harmonies the more you will have to accept some apparent out-of-tuneness the math just doesn't work perfectly. bottom line you sometimes need to stop blaming the instrument or trying to get a perfect sound and just play, because honestly 99% of the listeners cant tell the difference. i have set intonation with electronic tuners but when i play my ear says out of tune, so i retune by ear, by tuner, to a song and it's never right despite the tuner claiming the intonation is perfect. well then i learned about piano tuning and realized there is more to it than a little box telling you it's right.

what i'm trying to say is a tuner puts the string at a certain pitch and it stays there if you string it right. tuning instability is caused by the bridge and nut and possibly the strings. poor intonation can be mistaken for instability, even if you fix all those things it still won't be perfect, it's the nature of any temperment, some sound better than others but all are imperfect and as guitar players we are more or less stuck with even tempered along each string. 

 

[Jeremiah]

It's a late 90s Squier Venus 12-string - old enough to be junk but not old enough to be vintage. (Actually the general build quality is so bad I don't think it could ever have any 'vintage' value.)

I realise that any tuning problems are likely to be caused by the nut, and also the string retainer which pulls some of the strings down at a very steep angle behind the nut, and generally there is no 'slipping'  -  once it's in tune it's not too bad.

The real problem with the tuners is just that they feel horrible, some are very stiff to turn, while others are very loose, and some are stiff for half their rotation and loose for the other half. Also, I think modern tuners with a higher gear ratio make accurate tuning a bit easier, which is another reason I'd like to replace them (but hopefully without spending too much money, because the guitar isn't worth spending that much on.)

 

[Dan025]

i would buy whatever is the easiest to install for you, if you don't want to ream then find tuners with the same size and type of bushing that you already have.

higher ratio tuners are nice and precise but if you cant find them in your style i wouldn't worry too much. there are vintage style tuners that feel smooth and consistant. vintage tuners are completely capable of tuning the guitar but it takes just slightly more care on your part than these super high ratio modern tuners. i would just get a quality tuner that fits the guitar with little effort.

 

[Superbeast520]

you'll find your vintage style locking tuners that fit a vintage ream and have a better tuning ratio here......


http://www.allparts.com/Miscellaneous-Guitar-Keys-s/178.htm    ......12 string tuners
     

http://www.allparts.com/Locking-6-In-Line-Keys-s/176.htm?searching=Y&sort=13&cat=176&show=200&page=1    ......Locking six in line tuners.


http://www.allparts.com/Locking-3-X-3-Tuning-Keys-s/175.htm    ......Locking 3x3 tuners


http://www.allparts.com/Tuning-Keys-s/167.htm    ........all their tuners.
 

.... alot of guys dont like to buy here because they can be expensive, but everything I ever got here was top quality and they have an awesome selection.  :icon_thumright:

 

[-CB-]

when he says that the "tuner slips" he is probably talking about the winding around the tuners, thus the need for them to be locking.

no, thus needing to be strung up correctly

 

[-CB-]

The real problem with the tuners is just that they feel horrible, some are very stiff to turn,

good machine heads are a joy to use..

 

[Superbeast520]

How true that is..... I put 21:1s on mine and Im amazed at the difference, I can really nail the note Im tuning to without going past and then dropping back down and all that fuss, I really think quality tuners should be given more priority in a build than they seem to get, it really is that little bit of difference that takes the guitar from being pretty good to being great. Its funny with all the talk of pickups and tone so few people bring up tuners.