One of the venues I play has some audio problems that I am hoping some people on this board may be able to help with. My basic setup is my guitar into my pedal board into my amp. The amp is on stage and mic'd. The problem I am having is with interference. The amp is picking up noise from people around me and can get so bad that it just starts to feedback on its own. There are times when I can hear vocalists through my amp (distorted sounding but still there). It is worse depending on what I use. If I use my single coil guitar I have to keep it in the middle "hum canceling" position or I get instant squeal. Using my rat pedal is the worst offender. This particular band is a church band and also plays in a service held in a gym. It is the exact same band using the same instruments (different sound system) and same volume levels has no problems whatsoever . Any ideas on what could be the problem?
Venue sound problems
- Thread starter Danuda
- Start date
mayfly
Epic Member
- Messages
- 8,974
Hmmm. Some questions for you.
1 - same PA operator in both venus?
2 - what's the difference in the PA? - especially mics/monitors
3 - lots of hard walls in the problem space?
4 - Church gig - I assume you're not super loud. Is that the case?
5 - dodgy wiring in one or the other venus?
6 - are you sure it's the guitar feeding back, and not the guitar signal feeding back in the PA?
1 - same PA operator in both venus?
2 - what's the difference in the PA? - especially mics/monitors
3 - lots of hard walls in the problem space?
4 - Church gig - I assume you're not super loud. Is that the case?
5 - dodgy wiring in one or the other venus?
6 - are you sure it's the guitar feeding back, and not the guitar signal feeding back in the PA?
SustainerPlayer
Hero Member
- Messages
- 2,702
Does the problem venue have an active audio induction loop?
Mayfly said:
1. - Yes, the same people run it.
2. - The stage venue has built in everything so it is completely different. The speakers hang from the ceiling and the sound console is in the back. The monitors are the same brand, but are wired through the walls whereas the gym uses a snake for everything.
3. Lots of hard walls in the gym and the sanctuary. the sanctuary has a sloped ceiling at the stage that goes from maybe 20 feet down to 6 feet on either side.
4. I am much louder for the gym gig as we don't usually mic down there. We have in the past, but we stopped and just use my amp. The speakers we had at first could not handle all that we were running through it.
5. The gym has new wiring and the sanctuary has older. The gym is only 5 years old. The sanctuary was built in the 70's. It was remodeled maybe 10 years ago but they may have not redone the wiring. It is possible.
6. I am positive it isn't into the PA. The squeal and the audio from others can only be heard from my amp. You don't hear it in the monitors or in the house speakers. The bass player occasionally hears it from his amp as well. He runs direct into his amp with no pedals.
SustainerPlayer
Hero Member
- Messages
- 2,702
Danuda said:
Try turn it off while you play. Those systems are very likely to get into guitar amps and/or boards.
Cagey
Mythical Status
- Messages
- 24,425
Is it a tube amp? I'm wondering if one of your tubes is going microphonic? But, you say it doesn't happen when you're in a hum-cancelling position, which says it's RF interference. Those single coils are behaving like antennae and picking up the singer, another player with a wireless system or maybe even the in-ear monitors if you use those.
Seems to me there's a mod you can do to the amp to filter out RF without affecting the sound. Something like a .0005 cap to ground from the input. Maybe Mayfly remembers what I'm thinking of.
Seems to me there's a mod you can do to the amp to filter out RF without affecting the sound. Something like a .0005 cap to ground from the input. Maybe Mayfly remembers what I'm thinking of.
Yeah, it is a tube amp.Cagey said:
It does happen in the hum-canceling position. It just is not as bad. Maybe it is the wireless system. The lead singer is on a wireless mic. Sometimes I get his guitar as well, but he plays an acoustic so maybe it is picking up a little of the acoustic from his mic.
There does have to be a little more to it then that though. If I turn my amp volume up and then turn on my Proco Rat the amp will slowly and then ear piercingly start to squeal. Even if no one is playing or singing. I haven't tried to do this with the sound system switch off though. The same volume settings in the gym do nothing.
S
swarfrat
Guest
If its mechanical/microphonic (reverb tank or tubes) it should be easy to correlate with volume or gain.
oceanruckus
Junior Member
- Messages
- 27
How's the power supply to the amp/PA? (I'm just thinking out loud...)
swarfrat said:
Volume and gain definitely affect how bad it is. With the channel clean and not overdrive or distortion pedals on I can crank the amp louder. I haven't checked to see if I can get it to squeal with just volume. Since it is a church gig I never turn the amp above 4-5ish and usually I cut the volume just a titch with a volume pedal (It is how I control volume between my 2 guitars, I should just use the volume knobs on my guitar, but it is a habit now.).
S
swarfrat
Guest
My amp has a microphonic preamp tube. It pretty much only appears as ringing when then gain is on 10 and the master above 3, or the master on 10 and the gain above 7 AND I'm playing through the combo's speaker.
I find it hard to believe though that it could be bad enough to pick up external vibrations from monitors, and not be so bad that it wouldnt cause problems with your guitar all the time.
I find it hard to believe though that it could be bad enough to pick up external vibrations from monitors, and not be so bad that it wouldnt cause problems with your guitar all the time.
mayfly
Epic Member
- Messages
- 8,974
Based on reading all of this, I think that your guitar amp, and possibly the guitar, is picking up RF hash from the vocal mics.
One way to test this is to convince the vocalist, for the good of the music, to use a wired mic for one performance. If that cures the problem, then you have a couple of options:
1 - a different wireless mic. A non-analog (i.e. digital) one in a different frequency range
2 - check your guitar amp. It should have a 'grid stopper' resistor before the input jack and the grid of the first tube. This resistor, along with the input capacitance of the tube, creates a low pass filter to allow audio but block RF. If that resistor is missing or has been bypassed, you'll have trouble.
Trevor
One way to test this is to convince the vocalist, for the good of the music, to use a wired mic for one performance. If that cures the problem, then you have a couple of options:
1 - a different wireless mic. A non-analog (i.e. digital) one in a different frequency range
2 - check your guitar amp. It should have a 'grid stopper' resistor before the input jack and the grid of the first tube. This resistor, along with the input capacitance of the tube, creates a low pass filter to allow audio but block RF. If that resistor is missing or has been bypassed, you'll have trouble.
Trevor
Patrick from Davis
Hero Member
- Messages
- 2,197
I got a friends guitar to be a crappy mic just by singing into the strings over the pickup. The nature of your problem doesn't sound the same, but it might be interesting to talk loudly into your guitar and see if it is reproduced. Others should be able to tell you if it is something that is prominent or not, it is difficult to tell on your own. A set of Ken's pickups fixed that problem.
Of course that is just something to try, but the on again off again nature of the problem doesn't make it likely. I removed the grid stopper resistor Trevor mentioned from a project amp I built, and was able to get a radio station with my amp. Quite funny, but very annoying depending on the song being played on the radio I was picking up. A 10K resistor was enough to stop the problem. Seems odd that you can't pick it up in both places. Makes me wonder about the power source/grounds. Play next to the sing in the place that you normally do not hear the problem if you can as well. Sorry I can't offer solutions, only things to try to narrow it down.
Patrick
Of course that is just something to try, but the on again off again nature of the problem doesn't make it likely. I removed the grid stopper resistor Trevor mentioned from a project amp I built, and was able to get a radio station with my amp. Quite funny, but very annoying depending on the song being played on the radio I was picking up. A 10K resistor was enough to stop the problem. Seems odd that you can't pick it up in both places. Makes me wonder about the power source/grounds. Play next to the sing in the place that you normally do not hear the problem if you can as well. Sorry I can't offer solutions, only things to try to narrow it down.
Patrick
WarmothRules
Senior Member
- Messages
- 407
I've never tried one but look into a valvulator. You put it at the start of your chain, might help with the problem.
At the risk of sounding over-simplified, something or things is offering up signals (not-you), and something else is picking them up (you). Poking/prodding/cajoling/screaming/begging to the not-you is one way to go about it, another way would be to take your humbucking guitar, set the volume and tone on "6" and plug it straight into the amp. Turn it up when you want more. RATs had a lot of different series and variations - make the new improved, make the newer improve-der one, make a "classic" reissue, make an improved classic etc; but they do all put out sort of a "flat" signal, meaning that there's bass, mids and treble, instead of just mids like a Tube Screamer.
But besides the question of why you need a fuzztone in church, which is theological in nature, you've kind of answered your own questions. If you're using the exact same stuff in the gym and it's quiet and in the church, it's noisy, well then, the church wiring is zoinked. It can't be anything else! And if it's worse with the RAT on, don't turn it on.... :icon_scratch:
But besides the question of why you need a fuzztone in church, which is theological in nature, you've kind of answered your own questions. If you're using the exact same stuff in the gym and it's quiet and in the church, it's noisy, well then, the church wiring is zoinked. It can't be anything else! And if it's worse with the RAT on, don't turn it on.... :icon_scratch:
StubHead said:
The problem is that even without my pedal board and plugged straight in I get interference in the sanctuary. I think it is a combination of things from what I am picking up from peoples responses. The wiring is not as good. Just with the amp plugged in it hums more than normal. I also think I am picking up interference with some of the wireless systems as well.
As far as the fuzz, distortion ect. A lot of modern christian music uses heavier guitar sounds than it used to. You can't get the same feel just plugged straight into the clean channel.
Here is a quick example.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5tT8zwHysc&playnext=1&list=PL66FCC64C06B0AEB6&feature=results_video
Patrick from Davis said:
I can pretty much rule out my rig. (kind of) I have played outdoor venues with no problems at much louder volume levels. I really think it could be a power source/wireless mic problem. I am going to test is out this weekend and see if I can narrow it down by turning different things on and off at the soundboard.
