Tuning Stability

[cdub]

Cagey, I'm all over the results of your spring testing jig. I've blown like $120 bucks on trem springs- for six guitars. The RV springs are bigger, softer wire than most, so they claim. I also notice a more solid tone, a more resonant whole. I think...

I'd taken to slotting flat-bottomed nut blanks myself rather than dropping the chedd on a CNC-routed one, but dayum... it's a real tiny ballbreaker, that job. Can you GAS for lutherie tools? Want Stewmac's $200 nut & saddle sander in the worst way.  Currently, I draw a line on the nut, and just file it down till my file hits the vice. Then I use a slot spacing 'ruler' and a razor blade. Easily worth just paying W to do it for you!

 

[cdub]

1. Quality locking tuners, installed tightly, in tight-fitting holes. I use Hipshot grip lock in the Sperzel drilling plus a few reams...

For reference, Hipshot Griploks fit in the Schaller holes that Warmoth offer very well without reaming or adjustment.

I ordered the Sperzel holes on 5 necks. They all needed enlarging for 16:1 enclosed style grip locks and the 18:1 open gears, too... Some were unfinished necks, too. I read that Cagey just cranks 'em down with a socket, pulling the machine into seating, but I was going for "I can do this with my thumbs" tight. Do you use the 7/16" nut to finish the install too? I also use that mounting plate they include. I have never used a screw in the back. Advantages? I feel like it's all in how tight the hole is  :-\  and how tight the top nut is cranked down.

 

[Cagey]

The screw (or drift pin in the case of Sperzels) is just for anti-rotation. Has nothing to do with how tight the tuner is coupled to the headstock. So, if you're happy with how tight they are with just the threaded bushing, then you're good to go. It's good to keep in mind, though, that wood dimensions can be dynamic. The stuff will expand/contract with humidity and temperature changes (mostly the former), so friction fits can't always be trusted. Some sort of positive fastening and anti-rotation is just good practice.

 

[stratamania]

1. Quality locking tuners, installed tightly, in tight-fitting holes. I use Hipshot grip lock in the Sperzel drilling plus a few reams...

For reference, Hipshot Griploks fit in the Schaller holes that Warmoth offer very well without reaming or adjustment.

I ordered the Sperzel holes on 5 necks. They all needed enlarging for 16:1 enclosed style grip locks and the 18:1 open gears, too... Some were unfinished necks, too. I read that Cagey just cranks 'em down with a socket, pulling the machine into seating, but I was going for "I can do this with my thumbs" tight. Do you use the 7/16" nut to finish the install too? I also use that mounting plate they include. I have never used a screw in the back. Advantages? I feel like it's all in how tight the hole is  :-\  and how tight the top nut is cranked down.

I used Hipshot open griploks standard fittings in the Schaller holes, only thing I swapped out was the buttons which have no influence on the holes.

Test fit into Schaller Holes. (At the time of the linked thread below this information was scarce on the web, I  and a number of others on the forum have now used Hipshot into Schaller holes)

http://www.unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=22445.msg332786#msg332786

Fitting with the screws.

http://www.unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=22445.msg336528#msg336528

With the UMP backplate system

http://www.unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=23725.msg347877#msg347877

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

I have several "floating trem" guitars. The issues you are having are an incorrect tremel-no setup AND using a nut that hasn't been filed correctly. My first two Warmoth necks had Earvana nuts from Warmoth. Both required filing deeper and wider slots. I did this myself using some double-edged nut files of Japanese manufacture (with the red, yello, blue handles).

I had issues with, and hated the feel of, a Hipshot Tremsetter. The setup is very very precise with any trem stop or stabilizer. I would remove the tremol-no altogether until you're staying in tune without it, then add it and set it back up.

My sure-fire recipe for tuning stability:

1. Quality locking tuners, installed tightly, in tight-fitting holes. I use Hipshot grip lock in the Sperzel drilling plus a few reams...

2. Either a well-cut graph-tech nut that fits tight as hell in the slot and is perfectly squared up, or an LSR roller nut which look futuristic, only come in one width, and only come in one color. Some say it has a tone thing going on too, but it's pretty much negligible. My vote goes to the graph tech and some elbow grease vs shimming the LSR...

3. Quality saddles. Some trems come with the best saddles for that unit (Hipshot Contour, I'm looking at you), others can stand an upgrade. Graph-tech makes a set for the VS100. I have a couple Bladerunners wih Gotoh steel or brass saddles. You get the idea.

4. Heavy strings and 5 springs. I play .011's and use a full set of Raw Vintage springs on every guitar I assemble. I think $20 for a pack of trem springs is highway robbery and am curious about he Fender vintage tension set. For the record, 5 springs is the important part here.

5. New Elixir strings get stretched and re-tuned until pulling on them no longer produces a flattening.

The only thing that I would add to this is that it is crucial that you have a reasonably straight string pull from the saddles to the tuning posts after going over the nut.  Any lateral directional changes at the nut ala an Explorer or Jackson style headstock, or even the hockey stick KWS, and stable tuning is no longer possible without a locking nut.

 

[TBurst Std]

I have been waiting to chime in on this topic. Largely I use my phone, but I knew I wanted a computer for my response.

First, I want to clarify this pertains to vibrato bridges that use a spring/claw mechanism (so no Bigsby styled).
I have found these items remain true with 6 points or 2 points.
The whole idea of better springs, lets just toss that aside for now. The number of springs? That will be unique to each guitar and spring (more on that later).

Though despised, the 6 point bridge can close to effectively be set up as a 2 point. Make sure your outer 2 screws are not binding and the bridge plate rests against the shanks. For the inner 4 screws, hell you could toss them if you like. If not, make sure they are even less inserted, but that also the bridge plate is against their shanks. (Dan E goes through this process in his book). The whole idea is to minimize friction. (And think of this, using only 2 of those smaller screws on the outsides potentially represent less surface area for friction than the 2 larger posts in modern designs).

The next part is trial and error for each guitar/string selection/setup. Once you find it though, it is repeatable; so write it down and throw it in your case.

The whole 'Fender' styled vibrato works on the concept of equilibrium. We have to find that for each guitar/string selection/setup. I have never had as good success with decking the bridge. It presents a 3rd item to the equation, and complicates the main 2. Balancing string tension against spring tension.

For a spring to have an action, it was be in tension, not collapsed. So the question then is how much tension? Well the design of the "fender" styled bridge is that it likes closer to a little rather than more.The design of the bridge dictates bar angle, so identify what you are comfortable with.

Myself I float between 1-2 credit card thicknesses (again yours may vary).
Through trial and error, identify how many springs you need to use to achieve this, so that the following 2 items are achieved:

1. A complete pull back on the bar to the deck does not fully collapse the spring (there is still a gap between coils of the springs).
2. That at neutral, the gaps between the coils on the springs are consistent with ALL the springs (a feeler gauge works great here).

99% of strings will not apply even tension from E to e. That is why we want to measure the coil gaps of the strings. Don't be surprised if your claw is slanted, actually expect it. When those gaps in the springs are equal, we have reasonably done what we can to be sure that the strings and springs are in equilibrium. (of course we haven't taken into the possible continuous variables of string and spring tension being consistent through out full range of motion.)

This is the methodology I have used for these bridges for years. My strat is a 6 point. With heavy usage over a couple hours, this methodology, coupled with a well cut nut and locking tuners, results in me rarely between more than 2-3 cents off at the end of sets.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask. In my effort to be concise, I may have left out items.