Tuning Stability

[Jaeberith]

Hey guys,

So I've got everyone's favourite problem - tuning issues. I have Sperzel Locking Tuners (Graduated Post Heights), Warhead Headstock, Graphtech TUSQ XL nut with a serving of lead in each slot, a Wilkinson VS 100 bridge that is floating, and a tremol-no.

I'm finding that when I bend a string up a step or more, it'll return considerably flat. However, when I divebomb the tremolo bar the whole guitar will return to perfect standard tuning.

I'm sensing that I'm close to a perfect set-up, and that it may be the nut hasn't been cut right. Any other suggestions?

 

[TBurst Std]

Stays when bombed but not bent.  I'd look to the bridge and saddles.  My reason is the nut would rear its head in both. Diving the bridge takes tension off the saddles, while a bend does not. 

 

[Jaeberith]

Stays when bombed but not bent.  I'd look to the bridge and saddles.  My reason is the nut would rear its head in both. Diving the bridge takes tension off the saddles, while a bend does not.

So I tightened saddle screws a little, not too much. Now I've noticed that bends are a little more in tune, but not perfect, and that divebombs/vibrato with the bar aren't staying in tune.

Also, the bridge is slightly closer to the body when lifted with the bar and then kept resting. So it looks like the bridge won't stay parallel with body when lifted?

 

[TBurst Std]

Tightened saddle screws?  The screws in a Wilky adjust action and intonation. Which ones did you adjust?
Have both adjusted for you preference, then see what issues you run into.  From your OP, I would be curious if only certain stings didn't come to pitch after bends.  I would check for saddle burrs on those saddles and also that the ball ends were also staying fully in the block. Come to think of it, the loop loosening on a ball end could cause something similar.  The unique thing about your OP is a decrease in tension results in tune. And increase in tension does not.

 

[Jaeberith]

Tightened saddle screws?  The screws in a Wilky adjust action and intonation. Which ones did you adjust?
Have both adjusted for you preference, then see what issues you run into.  From your OP, I would be curious if only certain stings didn't come to pitch after bends.  I would check for saddle burrs on those saddles and also that the ball ends were also staying fully in the block. Come to think of it, the loop loosening on a ball end could cause something similar.  The unique thing about your OP is a decrease in tension results in tune. And increase in tension does not.

I adjusted the intonation screws so that they were more than snug. The instructions say not to over-tighten them, and it is fully intonated. I'm still finding that all strings besides the high E go flat after bending. I applied vaseline on the knife edges and posts, still no improvement.

 

[TBurst Std]

Check your saddles for burrs as well as your trem block.  I'm trusting these are not new strings, or if that they are, you have already stretched them out.

 

[Cagey]

Get rid of the Tremel-no. They're not all they're cracked up to be. At best, when they're working perfectly, they add a small amount of friction to the bridge travel. You would think that would manifest itself in vibrato use, but the springs and inertia helps the bridge return to neutral when you're wanking on the whole assembly. When all you're doing is stretching a string, it only pulls the bridge slightly flat and it may or may not return.

For the setup you have, with locking tuners, a slippery well-cut nut, and a floating two-point knife-edge fulcrum vibrato bridge, your tuning should be very reliable without any crutches. Mine is, and I have a bunch of guitars set up exactly that way. Tremel-no devices are for guys who aren't so blessed, and may be using one of those dreaded 6 point Fender trems or something equally erratic.

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

You can also get some Floyd Rose or Floyd Rose Upgrades Heavy Duty Silent Springs.

They're very reliable.

 

[stratamania]

In the situation described if something was binding it could be expected the string to go sharp. Things to check are the strings well seated in the bridge and are the locking tuners holding the strings well?

I tend to lock tuners, tune and then give them a little bit of an extra tighten.

 

[Jaeberith]

So I gave my guitar to a guitar tech on Friday, and I got it back today. He said "the locking tuners weren't tight enough", and that because I use Elixir strings, "you need to wrap more around the tuner post." I asked him why I need to do that when I thought locking tuners negate the need for wrapping, and he said Elixirs are notorious for slipping because of the coating on them. Have any of you guys noticed that? I've always used Elixirs but I've always had locking nuts, and never used locking tuners with them.

 

[Cagey]

The mechanical advantage locking tuners have is pretty high. The force you put on the that 5/8(?) knurled nut on the back of the tuner gets concentrated down to a post that's only maybe .100" diameter. Then, the heaviest pulling string is only yanking back about 15 lbs. So, I could be wrong, but it seems like unless there was something wrong with the tuner, it would be tough for it to not get a good grip on a string.

I don't use Elixirs, but I don't do anything heroic to hold strings in lockers. Turn the locking nut until it's finger tight and call it good. That's after pulling the string fairly tight in the first place so I barely get a half-wrap on the tuner when the string's up to tune. Otherwise, you defeat the purpose of using lockers in the first place.

Maybe you had a bad set of strings, and simply replacing them "fixed" it. For lack of a better explanation he just blamed the tuners rather than let you think you just paid somebody cash money just to change a set of strings :laughing7:

 

[TBurst Std]

I have locking tuners on my Godin Flat Five X and use Elixirs on it.  Never an issue. 

 

[Jaeberith]

Now it won't stay in tune after a divebomb. Some strings will be sharp, but bending a string will bring all the strings back in tune. I'll continue stretching the strings, but they seem to be fully stretched.

I get the same result with the Tremol-No in and out.

 

[TBurst Std]

Now it won't stay in tune after a divebomb. Some strings will be sharp, but bending a string will bring all the strings back in tune. I'll continue stretching the strings, but they seem to be fully stretched.

I get the same result with the Tremol-No in and out.

That sounds like a binding nut.

 

[stratamania]

I use Elixirs, I don't need extra wraps just what I described above. I have seen it on locking tuners of various types. Come to mention it I have seen it on normal D'Addarios too. If the string isn't actually locked in the tuner it can slip.

Nut could be worth looking at too.

 

[Jaeberith]

Could a binding nut also be the reason why the bridge won't stay parallel after a bend? It'll move ever so slightly.

Would I be able to fix a binding nut on my own, provided I have the tools?

Edit: I've noticed that the height of the string saddles have not been adjusted to match the fretboard radius. Could this be the problem?

 

[TBurst Std]

Parallel to what?

 

[Jaeberith]

Parallel to what?

Parallel to the body of the guitar.

 

[stratamania]

If the bridge is not returning to zero position after tremolo usage it might be that the fitting of the tremol-no is not totally aligned.

 

[Jaeberith]

If the bridge is not returning to zero position after tremolo usage it might be that the fitting of the tremol-no is not totally aligned.

Good shout, I'll take a look into this. Do you have a tremol-no by any chance?