To Clone and call it Your Own?

[bobsessed]

Okay bear with me here. There seems to be an unwritten rule that says one should not build a Fender amp clone, and then put a genuine Fender amp badge on it. At least that's the feeling I got several years ago when I was building some speaker cabs. In the first place, I don't want to do that. But at the same time, it seemed to be the general consensus among cab builders that Marshall cabs were fair game. I have always built cabs that have no logo on them, first because my cabs tend to get covered in funky, non-standard colors. I did, however, build one cab recently that I'm especially proud of, even if I did add the Marshall logo. It's a 1960 TV clone that didn't cost $1200.....so.......Anyway, here's what I came to ask. Do any of you put together your Warmoth guitars and then put your own name on the headstock? I did. It felt kinda wrong. Even though it looks awesome. So, am I evil for doing that?

 

[Logrinn]

Putting your own name on it is ok in my book. I put the Warmoth decal on the ones I've built.
But putting the Fender logo on it feels a little weird to me. Mostly because I associate Warmoth with high quality stuff and Fender ... well, not so much.

I've said something like this before: If you're building a Ferrari, why put a Volkswagen decal on it?

 

[Verne Bunsen]

For my part, I feel it is disingenuous to put, for instance, a Fender logo on a partscaster because it mis-represents it as something it's not. I don't judge anyone who sees that differently, and I have done it myself a couple of times at the request of someone I was building for, but it always came with a stern lecture  :laughing11:  That said, I have no issue at all with putting my own design on the headstock of a partscaster that I assembled. Warmoth doesn't make guitars, they make guitar parts. You make the guitar. Therefore no mis-representation is taking place. That's my take on it anyway.

Interesting topic, I suspect there will be some good dialogue here.

 

[Cagey]

I'm with Verne. I built it out of carefully chosen parts and set it up based on my idea of what a good guitar should be like, so I don't mind putting my name on it. Although, I've only actually done it once. I've put Warmoth's name on most of them, if for no other reason than to have something on the Headstock. But, I don't put other instrument manufacturer's names on anything, no matter what they resemble. They didn't build it, and if they want free advertising they can put it on the guitars they build. I'm not going to hand one of my Strats or Teles over to someone and have them walk away thinking that's the kind of features/quality/workmanship/playability they can expect from Fender. I will be forever grateful to Leo for designing those body styles, but FMIC can fight their own battles in the marketplace.

 

[BigSteve22]

Certainly, no problems here.

Like Cagey noted, referring to his builds, most of us agonize over every detail and aspect of our builds. The final product is not a Fender or Warmoth guitar, it's the BUILDERS work come to life.

Besides, I'd bet that Warmoth's license from Fender strictly forbids them from building complete instruments. Probably why they don't.

 

[AirCap]

If you sell a guitar or bass made from parts manufactured by another person or firm, you didn't build squat. You ASSEMBLED it. Built implies fabrication, and if you are not the fabricator - you are NOT the builder. PERIOD.

 

[Verne Bunsen]

How far does that go? Must you also fabricate your own tuners? Pots and switches?

 

[Cagey]

Right. That's why it's not accurate to call house builders "builders", because they didn't make the 2x4s, nails, paint, pipe, wire, window units, doors, shingles, etc. that the house is made of. They're properly called "House Assemblers". Unless, of course, a truck brings your house. Then it's called a "Pre-Fab" or a "Mobile Home"  and it's put in place by off-season alcoholic carnival workers, who are, incidentally, also your neighbors  :laughing7:

 

[VonBaffle]

I have a Warmoth Strat body with a MIM Fender replacement neck. I didn't design it after any particular model or year, and have never tried to pass it off as a real Fender. Any Stratocaster nerd can surely take one look and see that its a clone: "The 56 tobacco bust guitars never came with a parchment pickguard!" that sort of thing.
I feel that Warmoth is a simply a supplier to create whatever I want and put my own name on it. I suppose for that reason the necks are sold with no headstock decal.

 

[BigSteve22]

I have a friend who "builds" street racers. He doesn't mold the engine block, or machine the cam. Still, it's his specs and skill that make the final product scream down the quarter mile!

PS: Don't let the "Twin Mountain Custom Guitars" fool ya, that's not a company, just a place I used to go backpacking. Never sold a guitar, but I have given several away to friends. Although, not ones I have "assembled".

 

[swarfrat]

I once worked in manufacture of machine tools for one of the most prestigious manufacturers in that industry. And we still bought our screws, collets, etc...

 

[Wolfie351]

A licence fee was paid to Fender for every Strat, Jazz, Tele, etc product you've purchased from Warmoth.  I say that gives me pretty much every right to put any freakin' label I want on my guitar, including a Fender one.  Don't forget...it's not illegal to make, own or play any instrument that is a clone or imitation.  It's only illegal to sell them.

 

[AirCap]

How far does that go? Must you also fabricate your own tuners? Pots and switches?

Ask Fender and Gibson. Do they make their own hardware and electronics?

Don't misunderstand me, folks. I'm not saying you are not luthiers. It takes the skills and abilities of a luthier to assemble, finish, and setup these instruments.

But if you didn't MAKE the body and neck - you're not the maker. You are NOT the builder.

This question was settled years ago, back in the Stone Age - when all the hoity-toity actual builders used to look down their noses at was disparaging referred to as "kit guitars" as being NOT LUTHIERY. But it is, because of the above mentioned skills and abilities to bring that instrument to life to fit parameters set by a client (or the luthier assembling it).

A whole lot of people had to fight and educate the establishment and elites to prove that kit guitars belonged to the world of luthiery as legitimate guitars. Some of you late to the game or simply young and ignorant of history do not know this.

NOW - putting two items from Warmoth (or other brandname) together is acceptable, but don't kid yourselves. That's all I'm saying. I'm not posting this to slice up your honor or sense of importance. But get it straight. You are not the builder. And there's no shame in that.

 

[Tipperman]

I don't have a problem with it personally. Even applying a Fender or Gibson or whatever logo. If that's what floats your boat, do it. If it will make you happy, then by all means do it. I have a certain decal on a certain guitar that isn't actually from a certain manufacturer. I did it because I wanted it to look that way, and because it makes me happy to look at. To say "Yep, that's an accurate replica with a few modern improvements."

Then again, my whole view on "building" these, so to speak, is you're doing it to make yourself happy. So TL;DR, do what suits you.  ccasion14:

 

[Verne Bunsen]

How far does that go? Must you also fabricate your own tuners? Pots and switches?

Ask Fender and Gibson. Do they make their own hardware and electronics?

The question is for you though, because by your definition:

If you sell a guitar or bass made from parts manufactured by another person or firm, you didn't build squat.

it would seem that Fender and Gibson haven't built squat because a great many of the components they use are manufactured by other people or firms. I just don't think it's as black and white as you're making it. If the criteria for having "built" a guitar is that you do the woodwork, how much must you do to qualify? Do you have to cut down the tree or can you go so far as to buy a body blank from Warmoth? If you buy an unfinished body and modify the contours before finishing and assembling, have you built something? If you buy a finished body and route it for a non-standard pickup configuration? It's a continuum and identifying a line of demarcation where on one side you've "built something" and on the other side you haven't is finicky business. In my book anyway.

That said, I'd never in a million years call myself a luthier. I'd expect to be pointed at and laughed out of the room if I did. I haven't done what it takes to earn that title. Likewise I can work on my car and I built a motor for my old F-150 from the empty block up (I believe I built it despite having not actually personally cast the block nor machined the pistons) but I am not a mechanic. I can weld two pieces of metal together but I am by no means a welder. It's a matter of degrees. But if I take a pile of parts and turn them into a functional machine, by my criteria (and by Miriam-Webster's) I've built something.

 

[stratamania]

If you want to put your logo on some parts you assembled I dont see any problem with that. 

The point Aircap raised here about being the builder I agree with him, if we define the builder as someone who takes the wood and forms it into what becomes the neck and body. Even if the builder buys in pickups and screws he is still clearly the builder.  (Whether he uses CNC, hand tools or routers he is still the builder)

Now if someone buys in a neck and body, other parts etc and assembles it they clearly are an assembler regardless of the fact that they selected the parts etc. Depending on whether the body and neck were ordered finished or unfinished the assembler may or may not be also the finisher.

If you assemble per the above definitions you may or may not apply a certain degree of luthiery skills. Some just buy the parts and screw them together and not even bother with finessing the frets at all. 
Some outsource the finishing and fretwork to others to do and still others order all the parts and send it to a local guy or luthier to put the thing together for them.

An smaller handful take the parts and put in the hours and care and apply luthiery skills to turn out the best possible instrument they can.

Now in the hobby side of the market some of this may be viewed as semantics but outside of that these are actually very important points and definitions. There have been instances where certain so called "builders" are just buying in pre made bodies and necks that are also finished and passing them off as premium built guitars. They are not builders or even honest assemblers at that point and not even honest marketers.  In some cases they were even putting on logos of Fender. I am not going to mention any names but these instances are quite well documented elsewhere.

As for me I put my own logo on the first Warmoth I did.  But I would prefer to be in a position to have enough workshop space to build from scratch so I will probably not use that logo on any future Warmoths.

 

[Kostas]

Ι have four Warmoth guitars, two have blank headstocks and two have names I chose.

I don't care what others do with their guitars but I won't put anyone's name in mine even if I make an exact replica. If an individual or a company wants their name on mine they better pay for it.

The name on headstock is irrelevant to me, I don't believe in Fenders & Gibsons. Orville Gibson never made an electric and Leo Fender sold the company in 1965. The corporations that have the rights to use their names are just corporations into it for the profit, not for the love of the instrument or for the art.
                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                :headbang5

 

[Cagey]

Good points.

 

[BigSteve22]

Just FYI. (From Dictionary.com)

Build: verb (used with object), built or (Archaic) builded; building.
1. to construct (especially something complex) by assembling and joining parts or materials: to build a house.

Fabricate: verb (used with object), fabricated, fabricating.
1. to make by art or skill and labor; construct: The finest craftspeople fabricated this clock.

I'm done arguing semantics. I gonna go see if I can find a build thread to follow.......  :icon_jokercolor:

 

[stratamania]

dictionary.com is not going to include the uses of the word build and assemble in the guitar world as Aircap raised and I added as a talking point.

We of course have build threads here on this very forum. Some would say they were assembly threads. So even in the guitar world we dont always have consensus as to the meanings.

Build from parts or assemble from parts is certainly from an English point of view interchangeable.

Its where folks were assembling from parts and passing themselves off as builders (implying from scratch) selling commercially where the differentiation and cause for alarm set in from customers who expected a from scratch build and ended up with a partscaster.