This will cause a stir Downunder

[Cagey]

To be honest, I've historically never paid any attention to who produced or engineered things so I don't know any names. It's only been in recent years that I finally realized the importance of those guys because you're right - without them nothing else would have happened. I was kicking Jimmy Page's ribs in another thread here for that very reason. Regardless of the iconic songs he's played on, he's just not that great. Teen-aged garage band heros can cop his licks. Not to pick on him, he's just famous so he's easy, but if it weren't for the engineers/producers, it's unlikely many bands would have graduated out of the local bar scene.

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

To be honest, I've historically never paid any attention to who produced or engineered things so I don't know any names. It's only been in recent years that I finally realized the importance of those guys because you're right - without them nothing else would have happened. I was kicking Jimmy Page's ribs in another thread here for that very reason. Regardless of the iconic songs he's played on, he's just not that great. Teen-aged garage band heros can cop his licks. Not to pick on him, he's just famous so he's easy, but if it weren't for the engineers/producers, it's unlikely many bands would have graduated out of the local bar scene.

I'm probably gonna get flack for this one, but I think there are a lot of overrated guitarists.  While some were more influential than others, and certainly worthy of mention, I just don't see what the big deal is about some of the "guitar gods;" Jimi Hendrix, Jimmy Page, and Randy Rhoads, just to name a few.  There are a ton of guys out there who would just play circles around them.

 

[Cagey]

No doubt. And I'll stand by you and take the same flack for saying the same things. For instance, just to pick on one god, I'll allow that Jimi Hendrix was visionary and did some great things, but overall I'm not sure he ever learned to tune a guitar, or cared if one stayed in tune. Even the arguably best solo ever played (Machine Gun) was sorta whacked. Of course, that's sorta what made it great, too <grin>

Want more?

Jimmy Page? Come on! Ever seen that guy play live? Phbbt. Not only nothing to write home about, but nothing you'd ever want to sit through twice. Keith Richards? Gimme a break. Guy barely qualified as a hack. Spent most of his life so doped up he didn't know if he was in the bathroom or not when he took a piss. And these are icons?

It was the writers, engineers and producers that made those guys. That, and unlimited studio time. Hell, put anybody in a studio with unlimited everything, and let's see what happens. Maybe we'll see the next Monkees or Bangles or [insert hot chick here].

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

No doubt. And I'll stand by you and take the same flack for saying the same things. For instance, just to pick on one god, I'll allow that Jimi Hendrix was visionary and did some great things, but overall I'm not sure he ever learned to tune a guitar, or cared if one stayed in tune. Even the arguably best solo ever played (Machine Gun) was sorta whacked. Of course, that's sorta what made it great, too <grin>

Want more?

Jimmy Page? Come on! Ever seen that guy play live? Phbbt. Not only nothing to write home about, but nothing you'd ever want to sit through twice. Keith Richards? Gimme a break. Guy barely qualified as a hack. Spent most of his life so doped up he didn't know if he was in the bathroom or not when he took a piss. And these are icons?

It was the writers, engineers and producers that made those guys. That, and unlimited studio time. Hell, put anybody in a studio with unlimited everything, and let's see what happens. Maybe we'll see the next Monkees or Bangles or [insert hot chick here].

I certainly think Jimmy Page had some skill, or maybe it's just my lack of skill, but I got the TAB to "Black Dog," and while I could play it, I could NOT not "roll" my fingers like Jimmy and get anywhere close to that vibe he had.  Advanced technique?  Who knows, but it sounded a whole Hell of a lot better when he played it than when I did!

I think Hendrix certainly applied some music theory and had some knowledge of the instrument, but a lot of his work never overly impressed me.  Sure, he's done some memorable solos and stuff, but so has Kirk Hammett.  That doesn't make him great.

Ace Frehley.  He's notorious for playing the same basic notes over and over again, but what makes him great is the influence he had on a lot of Metal guitarists, not his ability to play the instrument.  He has a distinct sound, and you certainly know him when you hear him. 

IMO, "greatness" is not achieved by who can sweep-pick the most, play the fastest, or apply the most advanced techniques.  While it can be impressive, and sometimes it is, in the end I what makes someone great is the ability to capture the audience through the feeling of his/her music.

Best guitarist in the world?  I think there are a lot of great guitarists out there, but I've never heard anyone play with as much feeling as David Gilmour.  While Pink Floyd isn't a band I regularly listen to, he is certainly a guitar idol of mine because of the intensity and feeling behind his playing.  Every time I listen to a composition of his, I pick up something new that I hadn't noticed the last time I'd listened to it.

While I love Metal, and my main influences are the likes of Dave Prichard, Dave Mustaine, Dave Murray (lots of Daves LOL!), and (classic) Kirk Hammett, it can't be denied that David Gilmour is better than all of these guys when it comes to making a guitar sing.

 

[AutoBat]

I will totally agree that the solo in Machine Gun is fantastic, the entire set from the Band of Gypsys is phenomenal (and out of tune).

 

[stubhead]

In all these lists, it's impossible to separate influence from actual finger dexterity. And it's really difficult to separate out the producer and engineer in a tidy way either. To a large extent, Jimmy page was the producer and arranger of the first five Led Zeppelin records, and he certainly "engineered" his own guitar tones as far as mike placement and such. And as stoned as he was, it was Keith Richards who got the tapes made for "Exile on Main Street" that were later fixed in LA. Hendrix was there the first with the most, as far as really raucous and rebellious music, and the size and influence of a particular baby boom combined to twist all these lists towards late 60's/early 70's emphasis. Rolling Stone just revised their Top 100:

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/lists/100-greatest-guitarists-20111123

Of course Yngwie Malmsteen could play a lot more notes than Hendrix, but if you asked him why he plays guitar, he'd tell you "Jimi Hendrix." I thought that their previous list was more accurate at listing influential guitarists, as Duane Allman was #2. There was a period in the 80's where I was listening to a whole lot of commercial radio stations and it seemed like ALL the country songs featured a slide guitarist imitating Duane and ALL the rock songs were in some way or another imitating Led Zeppelin. And this was living in Austin! They ranked Keith Richards high, clearly because of his influence, not his actual chops; Jeff Beck has probably sold fewer records than the worst of the top ten there, but I listen to him way more often than any of the others. Clapton's rank is inexplicable to me, but his influence from the early days is huge.

Every generation is sure they have invented the New Best Thing, so you can break down the preferences rather strictly by age. If you were 15 years old when the "Hot for Teacher" video premiered, it's a sure thing Eddie Van Halen is your fave rave... There's a new bubble of minor-pentatonic riff-rockers gurgling up, and lo and behold they grew up listening to their parent's Cream and Hendrix albums. Some of the neo-psychedelia is more interesting to me.  And in another ten years, we can count on some neo-hairband power ballads. And no, you don't die before you get old, you just get old.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0XLKcMoXRE&feature=fvst

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

In all these lists, it's impossible to separate influence from actual finger dexterity. And it's really difficult to separate out the producer and engineer in a tidy way either. To a large extent, Jimmy page was the producer and arranger of the first five Led Zeppelin records, and he certainly "engineered" his own guitar tones as far as mike placement and such. And as stoned as he was, it was Keith Richards who got the tapes made for "Exile on Main Street" that were later fixed in LA. Hendrix was there the first with the most, as far as really raucous and rebellious music, and the size and influence of a particular baby boom combined to twist all these lists towards late 60's/early 70's emphasis. Rolling Stone just revised their Top 100:

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/lists/100-greatest-guitarists-20111123

Of course Yngwie Malmsteen could play a lot more notes than Hendrix, but if you asked him why he plays guitar, he'd tell you "Jimi Hendrix." I thought that their previous list was more accurate at listing influential guitarists, as Duane Allman was #2. There was a period in the 80's where I was listening to a whole lot of commercial radio stations and it seemed like ALL the country songs featured a slide guitarist imitating Duane and ALL the rock songs were in some way or another imitating Led Zeppelin. And this was living in Austin! They ranked Keith Richards high, clearly because of his influence, not his actual chops; Jeff Beck has probably sold fewer records than the worst of the top ten there, but I listen to him way more often than any of the others. Clapton's rank is inexplicable to me, but his influence from the early days is huge.

Every generation is sure they have invented the New Best Thing, so you can break down the preferences rather strictly by age. If you were 15 years old when the "Hot for Teacher" video premiered, it's a sure thing Eddie Van Halen is your fave rave... There's a new bubble of minor-pentatonic riff-rockers gurgling up, and lo and behold they grew up listening to their parent's Cream and Hendrix albums. Some of the neo-psychedelia is more interesting to me.  And in another ten years, we can count on some neo-hairband power ballads. And no, you don't die before you get old, you just get old.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0XLKcMoXRE&feature=fvst

Personally, I think if you're gonna make a "Best" list, it needs to be from particular time periods or decades.  Everybody grew up with something different.  My dad swears Do-Whop is the best thing to hit the music biz, while I think it's Metal.  Somebody from the 70s probably thinks it's the Bee Gees, and so forth and so on.

Read the new "Guitar World" and amuse yourself when you read Synyster Gates (Avenged Sevenfold) is the 3rd fastest guitar player IN THE WORLD.  Yep, good ol' Mr. Gates placed higher than Rusty Cooley, Yngwie, and a lot of others.  Ironically enough, not only is this list amusing because Mr. Gates the WORST guitarist of the bunch, but he's probably the slowest as well!

Goes to show you who Guitar World's audience is...  :tard:

 

[stubhead]

Any monkey with decent tendons and nerve conductivity can play really, really fast patterns. It's possible Mr. Gates is beyond that, I do think they're a little better band than Dragonforce, say. I have long been impressed with John McLaughlin's ability to use the entire chromatic scale to improvise at high speed, pulling melody-construction devices from all the hell over the place - collecting those little nuggets is a passion of mine. I don't care what kind of music you play, you have to learn some of the conventions... but McLaughlin hasn't impressed me since the stellar 1999-2000 Remember Shakti tour, which raises another problem with lists - are we rating them as they are now? In which case only Beck and McLaughlin even push the needle off the peg, Townsend and Clapton are stone-cold deaf among other things, and they keep trotting out all these bewildered old blues guys like Hubert Sumlin to twank out a few horrid noises. People get old... and it's NOT 1969 anymore, there are probably a half-dozen people just on this forum who if you could time-travel them to 1965 London or San Francisco (with current chops intact) would be "better" than the heroes.

http://tela.sugarmegs.org/_asxtela/RememberShakti1999-06-26BerkleePerformanceCenterBostonMA.asx

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

Any monkey with decent tendons and nerve conductivity can play really, really fast patterns. It's possible Mr. Gates is beyond that, I do think they're a little better band than Dragonforce, say. I have long been impressed with John McLaughlin's ability to use the entire chromatic scale to improvise at high speed, pulling melody-construction devices from all the hell over the place - collecting those little nuggets is a passion of mine. I don't care what kind of music you play, you have to learn some of the conventions... but McLaughlin hasn't impressed me since the stellar 1999-2000 Remember Shakti tour, which raises another problem with lists - are we rating them as they are now? In which case only Beck and McLaughlin even push the needle off the peg, Townsend and Clapton are stone-cold deaf among other things, and they keep trotting out all these bewildered old blues guys like Hubert Sumlin to twank out a few horrid noises. People get old... and it's NOT 1969 anymore, there are probably a half-dozen people just on this forum who if you could time-travel them to 1965 London or San Francisco (with current chops intact) would be "better" than the heroes.

http://tela.sugarmegs.org/_asxtela/RememberShakti1999-06-26BerkleePerformanceCenterBostonMA.asx

While I'm not going to get into a pissing war about who sucks and who doesn't, but I'm a firm believer that video speaks for itself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOFgKy_CDX4&feature=related

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

The thing to separate is influential and best.  Usually the 2 are mutually exclusive.  Elvis wasn't the best at anything but he influenced Buddy Holly who influenced the Beatles who influenced everyone that influences us.  Who influenced him?  By all accounts, Muddy Waters was very influential as a guitar player, so much so, he wasn't good enough to play in his own band towards the end, and it wasn't because of arthritis.  We gauge how good or bad someone is on our or other's ability to recreate their licks.  Shouldn't it be the fact that they created something.  Hell, Jack White would've been Hendrix in '67.