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This is kinda obscene... (totally SFW, though)

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I found myself at Guitar Center the other day, and saw this Fender for $500 brand new....

.... and it's made in China.

Does anyone else find that more than a little nuts?  For what it costs them per instrument, MIC stuff is kinda expected on the ~$300 and below Squires, but this is getting obscene.  These instruments are made in factories that are little better than sweatshops, by workers who make less in a day than most of us make in 1/2 an hour or less.  Part of me is bugged by the human rights angle, but I'm more just amazed at the price gouging in this instance.  It's kinda ridiculous.

Then again, so are some of the biases about MIJ>MIA>MIM>MIK>MIC>MI Vietnam or Indonesia: the far & away best feeling, best sounding bass there was a used Pete Wentz model Squier, made in Indonesia.  Were my heart not set on a 5 string, and my preference to build it myself, I'd have dropped the $180 they wanted for it in a heartbeat.
 
Fender has a massive marketing and bureaucratic infrastructure to support, so I'm sure that's a good part of it. The rest is just hubris re: the Fender name. I know I can get MIK Fender clone basses out of Rondo that are pretty damn nice for less than $150, which, being out of China, is about what I'd expect that unit to sell for. Put a Fender sticker on an SX bass, and you could probably add a few hundred bucks to it and get it. Might even be a better bass.
 
Sorry, you're a bit late to the party. There was lots of rage about this at the end of last year. The whole Modern Player line are basically Squiers, with an extra hundred or so slappd on the price tag because they've had a Fender decal applied instead of a Squier one. That said, they do at least have a ocuple of unique body styles/layouts that you can't get elsewhere/without spending far more. Like, if someone is really desperate for a Thinline Deluxe with P-90s then the Modern Player line has you sorted, as random as that is.

What's far worse is the cost of MIM Fenders now. The' 72 Tele Deluxe is now £700 online (+more in an actual shop), making it more expensive than a Gibson Les Paul Studio, some types of PRS Mira, Fender's own American Special line of guitars, not to mention all the great guitars from smaller brands, especially ones from Korea which are easily on par with (and often better than) the Mexican Fenders.

Thing is, it's simply too economical now to have everything made in China. Hell, half the stuff in ''American'' guitars is sourced from China now (CTS pots, anyone?) anyway and a lot of the American factories aren't what they used to be. Once Japan proved that any country could make instruments on-par with American ones, production standards for MIA guitars have slipped. Gotta stay competitive, and that means cutting corners. In some extreme cases, that means packing up shop entirely and shifting it all to China, as Fender are now doing.
 
I 1/2 agree, but there is another side to think about.

a. Chinese wages have risen rapidly to the point that China is becoming more S. Korea-like and less Bangladesh-like day by day. It's not necessarily "slave labor" and all that over there. Vietnam, Bangladesh, some Caribbean countries, may be a different story. The Chinese tend to work their asses off, save money, educate their kids. Lot to be said for that.
b. The Chinese have proven they can make mid-quality mass market products in loads of other areas. And a mid-quality mass market product is all this Fender can really claim to be.
c. If your country (whatever country) can make a better product for a better price than the Chinese, go ahead and do it. Nobody's stopping you. It's not like the Chinese are cheating or something. They were one of the poorest places on earth just 30 years ago. Going back to pre-globalization days would mean higher prices on loads and loads of goods and services, less competition leads to poorer quality. Hell, I just bought a 40" LCD tv on sale for $280 brand new. MIC, you bet. Is it as pretty as the best new Sony? No, but it costs 1/3 as much and it does all the same stuff. I don't see much wrong with that.
 
tfarny said:
I 1/2 agree, but there is another side to think about.

a. Chinese wages have risen rapidly to the point that China is becoming more S. Korea-like and less Bangladesh-like day by day. It's not necessarily "slave labor" and all that over there. Vietnam, Bangladesh, some Caribbean countries, may be a different story. The Chinese tend to work their asses off, save money, educate their kids. Lot to be said for that.
b. The Chinese have proven they can make mid-quality mass market products in loads of other areas. And a mid-quality mass market product is all this Fender can really claim to be.
c. If your country (whatever country) can make a better product for a better price than the Chinese, go ahead and do it. Nobody's stopping you. It's not like the Chinese are cheating or something. They were one of the poorest places on earth just 30 years ago. Going back to pre-globalization days would mean higher prices on loads and loads of goods and services, less competition leads to poorer quality. Hell, I just bought a 40" LCD tv on sale for $280 brand new. MIC, you bet. Is it as pretty as the best new Sony? No, but it costs 1/3 as much and it does all the same stuff. I don't see much wrong with that.
+1
 
Well, they do cheat, kind of.  Within their borders, they are doing nothing illegal, that's not to say their labor practices would be legal here.  Their number of work days in a week, hours of a normal work day, equivalent compensation, and child labor laws compared to here are like working for Henry Ford during the depression.  The 16 ton, owing your soul to the company store lifestyle is alive and well there. 

My mother went to China in 2000.  Outside of the big cities, it is the equivalent of Central America.  Access to clean drinking water, let alone hot water, is scarce.  Sewage is an afterthought, and sewer pipes are made of terracotta, and forget about flushing anything made of paper or cotton.

But hey, that $90 guitar is deal. 
 
tfarny said:
a. Chinese wages have risen rapidly to the point that China is becoming more S. Korea-like and less Bangladesh-like day by day. It's not necessarily "slave labor" and all that over there. Vietnam, Bangladesh, some Caribbean countries, may be a different story. The Chinese tend to work their asses off, save money, educate their kids. Lot to be said for that.

Er.... no.  For lots of people in China, absolutely; but not for the class of factory workers that are making these guitars - these folks are just a few steps above slave labor.  They're technically paid, but nothing close to a living wage.  STDC nails it above.

tfarny said:
c. If your country (whatever country) can make a better product for a better price than the Chinese, go ahead and do it. Nobody's stopping you. It's not like the Chinese are cheating or something. They were one of the poorest places on earth just 30 years ago. Going back to pre-globalization days would mean higher prices on loads and loads of goods and services, less competition leads to poorer quality. Hell, I just bought a 40" LCD tv on sale for $280 brand new. MIC, you bet. Is it as pretty as the best new Sony? No, but it costs 1/3 as much and it does all the same stuff. I don't see much wrong with that.

I kinda do - I think we've got a distorted sense of entitlement about how much things should cost, and that has driven how businesses have operated, to the point where they're cutting costs by sending manufacturing to places where the living conditions are worse than the average Guitar Center parking lot.  Yeah, competition is good for consumer pricing, but there's only so many ways that can ethically be done, IMHO.

Ace Flibble said:
Sorry, you're a bit late to the party. There was lots of rage about this at the end of last year.

D'oh!
 
All good reasons why you should just buy parts from Warmoth and put together your own guitar/bass.
 
Reading through this thread reminds me of a couple things we should be aware of.

When Japan first brought automobiles here they were small, low priced, cheaply built, and everyone smirked and said oh how cute, then they proceded to broaden their car building quality and quantity, bam! almost destroyed the USA auto makers.

Harbor freight, they provide cheaply built tools and crap at a very low price and we( my buddies and me) always figure if this $20.00 cordless drill lasts ONE job ( One Day) then its worth it. But lately I see a huge quality improvement to many of their tools, Sockets and wrenches are still cheap, but they are well built. Harbor frieght is supplied from china and some of them other countries mentioned above.

Now it looks like MIC guitars are probably next, and as said above, chinese workers and companies are in it for the long haul, they are gonna compete huge in quality quantity and price real soon, or already.

None of this explains the high cost of MIC guiatrs sold at GC, a previous poster mentioned that they are no longer sweat shops but real factories with up and coming wages.

 
Wow, I didn't know that any Fenders were made in China. I thought there was just USA and Mexico (and Japan back in the '80s).

How sad.
 
Doesn't affect me a bit because I wouldn't buy some "Made In China" piece of trash...not purposefully, anyway.

I guess I don't see a reason to get upset, just don't buy the product.  :dontknow:
 
Street Avenger said:
Wow, I didn't know that any Fenders were made in China. I thought there was just USA and Mexico (and Japan back in the '80s).

How sad.
There are still Fenders being made in Japan now, couple of Jaguars and a Jazzmaster. There's a Fender Tele that is made in Korea, too.

Daze of October said:
Doesn't affect me a bit because I wouldn't buy some "Made In China" piece of trash
Who's to say that something made in China must be 'trash'? I mean, this MP series is trash, and I'm to say that because I've played a whole bunch of 'em, but that doesn't mean that every product coming out of China is crap.

Hell, look inside your own guitars. Most ''American'' electronic and hardware parts these days are made in either China or Korea. You think the CNC machine that carved out your guitar's body is made of flag-waving, red-white-and-blue American parts?

At this point the only dfference, at least in terms of the finished product, between MIC and MIA guitars, is the quality of the materials they are sent to work with. If you sent one of the main Chinese factories the same wood and gave them the same finishing tools as the big American brands, they would turn out a nigh-on identical product. It's precisely what ESP do with their Edwards series, in fact. Take ESP Standard-series parts, send them to China for basic routing and fitting, finish it off in Japan. If you picked one up you'd never be able to tell it wasn't a premium £2,000 ESP Standard, PRS Custom, American Deluxe Fender, etc.
 
The vast majority of what you buy is made in China, like it or not. Otherwise, you may not be able to get it, at least not at a price you'd be willing to pay.
 
I find the mindset of, "If it isn't American made, it must be crap" hilarious.  Reminds me of a brilliant marketing ploy the Japanese used back in the day whereby they stamped products as "MADE IN USA" for amything made in the city of Usa.  Americans bought the shit out of it not realising it was Japanese.
 
Pelagaard said:
I find the mindset of, "If it isn't American made, it must be crap" hilarious.
I just read through this string and couldn't find where anyone said or even hinted at that! Am I smelling an agenda?
 
Daze of October said:
Doesn't affect me a bit because I wouldn't buy some "Made In China" piece of trash...not purposefully, anyway.

I guess I don't see a reason to get upset, just don't buy the product.  :dontknow:


It was kind of hidden right before the post you quoted. :dontknow: That mentality is just dumb in this day and age. So much of your everyday items are made in China yet you consume  those goods, why choose a guitar boycott to make your political statement with? An instrument is a beautiful thing regardless of where its made. :party07:
 
ohhh speaking of which, I just bought an awesome plywood early 90s korean squier, with a really nice flamed neck. for $40 bucks!!!  I was going to take it apart (to sand and refinish the neck) but I was so surprised with the quality and how well it plays!!!

the morale of the story is... the Korean guitars were the chinese guitars of the 90s (just like the Japanese were the chinese guitars of the 80s) and they were supposedly crap!
Well, Japanese guitars are collectible by now, and the Korean ones are not that bad either!
I wonder if we think of the Chinese and Indonesian guitars like that by the time they are made in Nigeria!
 
I've maintained for years now that Korean-made guitars are not just servicable, but perfectly suited for professional players on tour. They don't have the inflated price tags of MIA and MIJ guitars that make it a shame if it's damaged or lost and they play and sound 95% the same. Why take a £4,000 Gibson Custom on the road with you when a £300 MIK Tokai will do the same job just as well? In fact a number of my favourite bands exclusively use MIK guitars precisely for this reason. Hell, I did it myself. Sold my R9 after a year becaue I came to realise that my Korean Epiphones actually sounded no different in a live situation and played just fine. I've got a Washburn WG-587 that is 100% Korean-made from headstock to straplock, cost me somewhere under £200 and it's so good the £800-£1200 ESP and Ibanez 7-strings can't compete.

Even a lot of the individual parts coming from Korea are very good. IronGear pickups are indistinguishable from the Seymour Duncan pickups they copy and cost half as much. The FR-1000 is as solid as an OFR. It's really, really hard to justify the extra money that official Gibson and Fender hardware costs when Korea's knocking it out the park every time.
 
pabloman said:
Daze of October said:
Doesn't affect me a bit because I wouldn't buy some "Made In China" piece of trash...not purposefully, anyway.

I guess I don't see a reason to get upset, just don't buy the product.  :dontknow:


It was kind of hidden right before the post you quoted. :dontknow: That mentality is just dumb in this day and age. So much of your everyday items are made in China yet you consume  those goods, why choose a guitar boycott to make your political statement with? An instrument is a beautiful thing regardless of where its made. :party07:

Well that's your opinion, and I think yours is just as stupid as you think mine is.  Every guitar (and piece of gear I've had, save for my Boss pedals) I've had made outside the USA has NEVER been up to the same standards.  My American guitars look better, sound better, play better, stay in tune better, and I've never had a problem with them.  I can't say the same about my cheapass Korean and Indonesian guitars.  I won't even do as much as LOOK at an instrument if it isn't made in America.

Pelagaard said:
I find the mindset of, "If it isn't American made, it must be crap" hilarious.  Reminds me of a brilliant marketing ploy the Japanese used back in the day whereby they stamped products as "MADE IN USA" for amything made in the city of Usa.  Americans bought the shite out of it not realising it was Japanese.

Find it hilarious all you like.  The only foreign guitars I'd ever own again are ESPs (not LTDs) or Ibanez (MADE IN JAPAN).

What's hilarious are people who go buy Chinese-made and Korean guitars and think they have an instrument on the same level as an American-made one!  :laughing3:

Cagey said:
The vast majority of what you buy is made in China, like it or not. Otherwise, you may not be able to get it, at least not at a price you'd be willing to pay.

I'm willing to pay whatever it costs for a quality, American instrument.

Ace Flibble said:
Street Avenger said:
Wow, I didn't know that any Fenders were made in China. I thought there was just USA and Mexico (and Japan back in the '80s).

How sad.

Yes, indeed it is sad.

Daze of October said:
Doesn't affect me a bit because I wouldn't buy some "Made In China" piece of trash
Who's to say that something made in China must be 'trash'? I mean, this MP series is trash, and I'm to say that because I've played a whole bunch of 'em, but that doesn't mean that every product coming out of China is crap.

Hell, look inside your own guitars. Most ''American'' electronic and hardware parts these days are made in either China or Korea. You think the CNC machine that carved out your guitar's body is made of flag-waving, red-white-and-blue American parts?

At this point the only dfference, at least in terms of the finished product, between MIC and MIA guitars, is the quality of the materials they are sent to work with. If you sent one of the main Chinese factories the same wood and gave them the same finishing tools as the big American brands, they would turn out a nigh-on identical product. It's precisely what ESP do with their Edwards series, in fact. Take ESP Standard-series parts, send them to China for basic routing and fitting, finish it off in Japan. If you picked one up you'd never be able to tell it wasn't a premium £2,000 ESP Standard, PRS Custom, American Deluxe Fender, etc.

I couldn't care less where the machines are made that build my American guitar, they aren't part of my guitar.  Smart, experienced Americans are building American guitars, not 10 year olds working in sweat shops.  Would you trust the idiot at Walmart to put your bicycle together?  No, you probably wouldn't.  It's the same thing.

Chinese products are crap.  I don't own them if I don't need to.  That goes for everything from my guitars and gear to my clothes.  You can support the Chinese economy by spending your money on garbage, but I'm not.  It has nothing to do with a political statement, it's a matter of preference.  I prefer to buy something ONCE, not five times.
 
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