This 6 vs. 2 point tremolo talk..

[Mattias Svensson]

I read a lot of discussions about 2 vs. 6 point tremolos. Kinman seems to very against 2 points tremolos and says they lack in tone vs. some other artikels I've read says 2 pointers are better for tone and sustain. I don't know what to believe since i don't have the opportunity to test the two tremolosystems at the same guitar. i choose an american standard for my new warmoth build. I thought it looks nicer,  especially the saddles, and since it is a tremolo I want a tremolo i can use a lot without tuningproblems.
I have hard to believe that with all things that affects the tone that 4 more screws should do that big of a difference if all tha other hardware and wood is top quality? Whats your thoughts guys? On Kinmans website it's like the 2 point tremolo is out of the question and really bad

 

[m4rk0]

well, in theory I can see that the 6 point should have better tone and sustain since they make a better contact with the body, but I can guarantee you that in reality this is not the case..
if you have a nice quality 2 stud trem with a nice big block(I prefer Gotoh wilkies) you won't have to worry about any tone or sustain loss..

 

[Mattias Svensson]

I went with the fender standard tremolo, think that looks nicer. It seems to have a big block, what I've heard they even have changed/updated it not to long ago..

 

[Cagey]

Mr. Kinman writes, or has written for him, some really nice ad and editorial copy. You get done reading his site, and you not only want his pickups at any cost, you believe everything else he says, too. You'll find yourself convinced that all other pickup manufacturers should simply give up now and go out of business. There's no point in continuing in face of such perfection! <grin>

But, you'll notice the only manufacturers who make 6 point vibrato bridges are those who are serving the "vintage" market, where people don't care how well something works or sounds, as long as it looks like it's an original design. They either don't know any better, already have a body set up for that bridge, are simply model builders, or they're not players.

Most modern designs are two-point bridges, or something along those lines. Even Fender uses two-pointers, and they pioneered the 6 point bridge! Why do you suppose that is? They're not any easier or lower cost to manufacture or install.

Actually, since it would be nearly impossible to have more than two of the six screws in a six-point bridge actually make hard contact with the base plate, you could almost call those two-point bridges, too. But, that doesn't absolve them of the sin of poor design. The other screws still exist to cause some amount of friction or interference, and the two that do make contact are too small to properly communicate between the bridge and the body. Plus, you don't know which two are going to be the contact points.

That's where any loss of sustain or tone would occur. You don't have that with two-point Wilkinsons, Hipshots, Gotohs, Floyd Roses, Fender American Standards, etc. as they use substantial mounting posts.

 

[stubhead]

One thing I could say is that since the six-point ones take a real finicky amount of setup to work well, the players that use them are the type of players who will go to great lengths to experiment and fine--tune all aspects of their rigs - in other words, these guys are the ones who sound the best. I personally believe this is the explanation for someone like Eric Johnson's great tone - not that he can hear battery types or tell the difference in the screws mounting his speakers (fo real) but that he's willing to spend eons on every little detail. Having said that, this is good enough evidence for the two-pointers for me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yGB6d_3n58

Anyone sound better because of their six little screws? Try this with one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgGvml0cOKA&feature=related

 

[drewfx]

There are basically 2 types of people:

1. Those who believe that however things were done 40-60 years ago was the only right way of doing things and any refinements/changes/improvements done since are tone destroying abominations. The fact that many of the design choices from back then were either random choices or made for reasons other than tone (economics, availability, ease of manufacture) escapes them.

2. People who understand that some changes are an improvement and have no effect on tone, other improvements result in slightly different tone (but not necessarily better or worse), and some changes are, gasp, for the better in every way.

 

[Mattias Svensson]

Thats sort of the point I wanted to say or come to. Nicely spoken guys!

 

[AutoBat]

Had I been the original buyer of the body on my guitar, I would've gotten a 2 point trem on it.
It had a 6 screw vintage style and I, as far as I know, am the only person on the board to try the Boogie Rail setup, which utilizes a single bar where the 6 screws live.
It's not really a great choice for a *new* body, but it's a great retrofit product.

You should love your Am Std trem.  This board truly has love for the Wilkinson trem, which is very similar to the Am Std 2 point trem.

 

[Superlizard]

Operation-wise, the 2 holer is better than the 6 holer.

Tone-wise, a trem's saddles are 1st to consider - then the block - then everything else.

Doesn't matter if you're using a 2, 6 or 10 hole (lol) trem:  if you're using cheap pot metal
(zinc is common) for your saddles and block, it's gonna kill your tone.  Remember guitar
companies' bottom line is $$$ - if they can take an old tried and true mechanism and
somehow cheapen it cost-wise (zinc vs. steel saddles for ex), they will.  And they
also know there's a lot of ignorance out there because many just don't know better.

Just because it's new does not necessarily = better.

Disclaimer:  If you're playing with so much gain and distortion that a sneeze on the guitar will produce
a full-on E power chord, then you're hardly going to hear any difference with tonal considerations like these.

 

[Cagey]

I've always enjoyed Jeff's rendition of "Somewhere Over the Rainbow". I'd like to do that with Skeeter Davis' "It's the End of the World". I know it's been covered a dozen times, but never instrumentally.

 

[Superlizard]

You should love your Am Std trem.  This board truly has love for the Wilkinson trem, which is very similar to the Am Std 2 point trem.

I love my Am Std trem - it works great; smooth movement.

But to get the tone right, I did a Callaham conversion kit which included stamped steel saddles,
a cold-rolled steel block and arm.  Because the stock powdered-covered zinc block saddles sucked ass
and always imparted this annoying pinging treble on the unwound strings.  The block was cheap
pot metal too (zinc).  Before, it pinged... now it crangs.

 

[Mattias Svensson]

I will change the american standard tremolo saddles to graph techs ghost sadles, heard they're good for tone as well.

About the block that comes with the american standard tremolo, is that bad? Should I change that piece to another block?

 

[AutoBat]

I'd try out the block that comes with it first and go from there.  It might be fine, it might not.
No need to spend the money before testing.

 

[Mattias Svensson]

But if i feel i have to, is callaham blocks the best way to go?

 

[AutoBat]

Callaham makes great high-quality replacement parts.

 

[Kostas]

...About the block that comes with the american standard tremolo, is that bad? Should I change that piece to another block?

No, it's not. It's different. It's not better or worse, it's just different.
Zinc has it's tone like steel or brass. Play a few months with it then change the block and see if you can hear the difference. Any little detail in guitar will affect tone but not many people can hear it. Most tremolos are good if you do a good setup on them. A tremolo will operate properly if the tuning keys are good and most important if the nut has been placed and cut correctly.

 

[Cagey]

I'd try out the block that comes with it first and go from there.  It might be fine, it might not.
No need to spend the money before testing.

It's also a great way to actually compare apples to apples. Nothing else would change, so you'd know whether or not the block actually had a good, bad, or neutral influence.

I get a kick out these guys (mostly at Harmony Central) who change 5 or 6 things at once, then give credit to the part they spent the most on for any change in character. "I wasn't happy with the way my Tele sounded through my amp, so I put in some Mercury Magnetics transformers, changed all the caps to paper-over-oil, changed all the resistors to carbon comps, put in some JJ tubes, and plugged in my buddy's '57 Les Paul through an I'veBeenHad Tube Screamer. Those MM transformers really did the trick! I'm putting them in all my amps from now on! I'd recommend those to anybody!"

 

[JamesL]

Is anybody else starting to hate the word "Tone"?

 

[Cagey]

Is anybody else starting to hate the word "Tone"?

LOL! Yeah, it does seem to get bandied about carelessly, doesn't it? You can use the word on music forums to disparage, compliment, degrade, reward, or invoke authority on anything from plants to mechanics to electronics to physics to attitudes. Most words that have that much utility are banned on family-friendly forums <grin>

 

[Superlizard]

Is anybody else starting to hate the word "Tone"?

For realz.

I mean, what guitar player in their right mind would concern
themselves about their tone and how they sound?

Doesn't matter if you plug into a 80's SS Crate or an original Vox AC30 - all gear sounds
just as good as the next piece of gear, because there's no discernible difference.

Eric Johnson, Jimi, Jimmy, Billy Gibbons, Yngwie... all of them - clueless.