Thinline Tele, problems with neck weight, unbalanced instrument??

[khal]

Hi everybody,
this is my first post in this forum :redflag:. I like it here. It's one of the few places (real and virtual) where I find people who care about the same things as I do. For about 15 years I read books, and modify my own axes, always thinking about building my own.
So this year I bought my first neck from Warmoth, a beautiful Mahogany Neck, which I mounted on my old 80's (heavy weight = hard ash?) Telecaster.
So I woke up on the following problem :help:: the neck is pretty heavy (although it sounds and plays great), so that even my heavy Tele pulls a bit towards the neck. I woudn't call it unbalanced yet, but it has the tendency to it.
I was thinking about building a Thinline Tele, there it might be a problem, cause the body would be much lighter.
What's your folk's experience in that context?? 
I was thinking about a thinline Tele with a Swamp Ash or Mahogany Body, with a Mahogany neck. I like the idea of mixing tonal elements from classic Fender construction (swamp ash) with gibson-like elements (mahogany neck)
I am afraid to choose a swamp ash thinline body, because it might be too leightweight and make the instrument unbalanced, pulling uncomfortably towards the neck? Any opinion about that.
The neck that I bought (which I mentioned above) has the modern trussrod (with the funny side adjustment). Are these necks heavier than the vintage or modern-vintage necks??
I would be grateful for any thought, suggestions and ideas.
Greetings from Portugal :glasses10:

 

[OzziePete]

G'day Khal (yes, I'm from Australia  :icon_thumright: )!

The issue of balance is one you hope to fix up by getting a new body? You also say that you already have a heavy Tele body that doesn't counter balance  the mahogany neck too well. I'm presuming that's a solid body?

Unfortunately, a Thinline will be considerably lighter than a solid body of the same wood and density, and I feel you are making your task hard by selecting a Thinline as a body to solve your balance problem.

Have you tried moving the strap pins around on your existing body, and see if a better balance could be achieved?

If you can, I'd also check the weight of that mahogany neck (must be some decent chunk of wood you have there  ), then compare it to the Warnoth Thinlines on the Showcase, to see what their weight is.

Welcome to the forum!

Pete

 

[Telenator]

Thinline bodies are tricky for the following reason.

Although you may have a good weight 4+ lbs body, the way a Thinline is made causes an uneven distribution of the weight. There is basically a centerblock of wood left inside the body and a chamber cut behind the bridge. In a normal solid body, the back end of the guitar is wider and therefore heavier causing the body to have a rearward weigh bias. On a Thinline, most of the wood is removed from the rear/heaviest part of the body. This causes the body to be less "rear-weighted" and makes for an imbalance when you stand up and play. I have a 5lb Thinline body that has a marginal balance to it. Not quite neck heavy, but close.

Because of this, I tend to build Thinlines with 5lb bodies and they seem to work out fairly well. I don't know why light bodies are so popular. I don't hear any tonal advantage and they just don't balance properly. In fact, in my experience, a lightweight Thinline will sound terrific in a room all by itself. Really awesome tone. But put it in the context of a live band and the lightweight body barely projects 5 feet beyond the band.

It's the weight distribution of a Thinline that causes this balance problem.

 

[jackthehack]

I'm pretty amazed that you could wind up "neck heavy" putting a mahogany neck on an '80s ash Tele body, unless you got the singularly heaviest mahogany neck Warmoth ever made and used lead tuners :icon_scratch:

I built an all mahogany Thinline "Special" http://www.unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=1294.0 only differentiation from a "std." one is P90s and the Gotoh NB bridge and it balances just fine; body was under 4 lbs.

Order the heaviest body available, you can always use some lead weight in the bottom of the control cavity if it's off.

 

[tfarny]

I'm surprised too; I have a rosewood neck on a thinline body and it's not neck heavy at all; perfectly balanced. Possibilities: lighter tuners, moving strap buttons, heavier bridge. On a thinline, you could put something heavy into the control cavity but I'd be surprised if it's necessary.

 

[Telenator]

Try playing those guitars standing up with a slippery strap. I have a suede strat for mine and it sticks to my shirt a bit which helps keep the neck from lowering.

Mine is a 5lb MIM body with a Fender American Standard neck. You'd think it would balance perfectly. It doesn't because of the weight distribution in a Thinline.

 

[Rick]

I agree with the suede strap fix.  There's not much you can do besides move the strap buttons.  I have a guitar like that, an all mahogany lp, and I just live with it.

 

[tfarny]

So far, we have two MIM fender bodies that are unbalanced, and two warmoth light thinline bodies that are balanced - anyone see a pattern here?

BTW, mine isn't neck heavy, standing, sitting, or with a 'slippery strap' - it's my guitar, so I'm pretty much the expert on whether it's neck heavy or not.

 

[Telenator]

Just covering the possibilities. I have been scratch building guitars since 1981 and have run into all sorts of questions from people about why this or that, and very often the answer comes from somewhere unexpected. Just covering the bases.

As to Warmoth bodies being balanced while MIM's are not, I don't know that we have enough evidence here yet to make a definite claim. The fact remains that, if you remove more wood from the bottom end of a guitar body than you do from the neck end, the bottom end will have lost more ballast than the neck end. This is the same regardless of brand. Count yourself fortunate as having one that balances well. I wish mine did. Too bad Warmoth does list neck weight. It would be helpful to all of us when building a light weight guitar.

 

[nathan a]

Too bad Warmoth doesn't list neck weight. It would be helpful to all of us when building a light weight guitar.

Agreed. This came up before, Gregg had a reason as to why they don't do this. Something like, "It would be time consuming, and most customers do not inquire about neck weights". I think that was the reason anyway. Still, I think it would make sense. If people aren't asking W about it when they order, maybe they should be 

 

[Telenator]

Well, the neck weight would also be helpful when building an SG or L5 style guitar. It would be a pain in the butt to weigh and list everything but I also feel that's where Warmoth has a clear advantage over other companies. They show a high quality photo of the exact piece you're buying and, in the case of bodies anyway, the exact weight. That's a big plus in my book!

 

[jackthehack]

Just buy one of CB's funky left shoes and quit bitchin' about it...

 

[vtpcnk]

any idea what would be the least weight of a bare body to make sure that it doesn't tilt on the neck side?

3 1/2 or 4lbs?

ofcourse i'm sure that the hardware, electronics, controls etc will also have its effect on the weight of the loaded body.

and also the type of wood used in the neck, fretboard, tuners ...

but at a bare minimum how much would the body need to weigh ...

in warmoth showcase some of the tele thinlines are like 2 lbs plus. that can never balance right?

 

[Telenator]

I have a 5lb Fender MIM ash body with wide range humbuckers in it and a Fender American Standard maple neck on it. The guitar is a wee bit imbalanced. I don't know how anyone can stand and play a 3lb body without having to support the neck while they play. Not to mention that, if you're an agressive player, the dang thing bounces around against your body because there's no weight to keep it hanging steady.

Some people claim to have no issues whatsoever with ultra light bodies. I won't doubt that because, that's their experience. My experience is different.

 

[khal]

Hello everybody,
First let me say that I am overwhelmed by all these answers to my first post ever in this forum.
Great brainstorming, many ideas that I will take into consideration when starting to order the parts from Warmoth.

Although I wanted to explain better a few things I mentioned, as I might have been a bit misunderstood, as OzzyPete (thanks mate :redflag wrote: "The issue of balance is one you hope to fix up by getting a new body? You also say that you already have a heavy Tele body that doesn't counter balance  the mahogany neck too well. I'm presuming that's a solid body?"

No I am not thinking about fixing the balance problem by byuing a new body, I want to build a new one.
But I noticed, that even with the rather heavy weight body of my old Telly, I can feel a TENDENCY to a bit of neck heavyness.

My thoughts was now: if even with a heavy body I feel this, it might be worse with a lightweight body.

I wanted to know your guys opinion about ways of reducing the problem:
- the actual Warmoth neck I am talking about has Sperzels on it. Are they so much heavier than average tuning machines, so that for example Gotoh minis might reduce the problem?
- the neck also has the modern trussrod (with side adjustment), are these necks heavier than vintage or modern vintage necks?
- the neck sounds great, is it because it is heavy? Does the weight of the modern trussrod contribute to the great sound, or are the trussrods "soundneutral".

Thanks again to all of you guys.
It's great being here...
Khal  :icon_thumright:
P.S.: what does "MIM" mean (I see the expression to describe bodies or necks, but can't figure out what it is...)

 

[ByteFrenzy]

Made In Mexico...

 

[Telenator]

I wanted to know your guys opinion about ways of reducing the problem:
- the actual Warmoth neck I am talking about has Sperzels on it. Are they so much heavier than average tuning machines, so that for example Gotoh minis might reduce the problem?

Lighter tuners will very often make a slight difference in the way a guitar balances. They also make a difference in the way a guitar sounds. Lighter tuners will have less sustain (due to the lighter weight), and will also let the guitar have a woodier sound. To some, this is an advantage. To others, they'd rather have the brighter sounding, heavier tuners that offer a bit more sustain and translate to a more rockin' tone. That's my experience.

- the neck also has the modern trussrod (with side adjustment), are these necks heavier than vintage or modern vintage necks?

They might be a tiny bit heavier but not enough to be of any consequence. You just happen to have found a particular neck that gets along great with the body it's attached to. This doesn't mean that neck will sound great on any body. It just means you happen to have two pieces that work exceptionally well together.

- the neck sounds great, is it because it is heavy? Does the weight of the modern trussrod contribute to the great sound, or are the trussrods "soundneutral".

See above for the answer to this question.

Just because you are building a guitar with premium parts does not guarantee you an awesome sounding guitar. There are so many variables that make big differences in the outcome. Starting out with high quality pieces sure does help, but it could take months to find the right neck/body combination to yeild the optimum tone. And that all depends on where your threshold is.

My advice to new builders is to go out and buy a Squier or Affinity Strat. Take it apart right down to the last nut and bolt, and then re-assemble it into a fine playing/sounding instrument. If it comes out playing and sounding worse than when you took it apart, it's probably not a good time to start a custom guitar build until a little more knowledge is gained.

P.S.: what does "MIM" mean (I see the expression to describe bodies or necks, but can't figure out what it is...)

"MIM" means Made in Mexico. It's a term specific to Fender guitars. Fendar also has MIK = Made in Korea, MIJ = Made in Japan, MIC = Made in China, and MIA = Made in America.

Good luck with your projects!

 

[vtpcnk]

hey any suggestions on what the strap button is to be placed for a decent balance with a heavier neck and lighter body?

any photos?

 

[tfarny]

I just bought two maple necks with similar thickness - one SRV Pro adjust and one '59 vintage modern, and the VM neck is at least 4 oz lighter than the pro, which makes sense since there are actually two trussrods in there. The difference is very noticable. Also, Sperzels and Schallers and planet waves tuners are all heavy. I would go with a lightweight tuner (Stew Mac lists tuner weights in the specs) and a vintage modern construction neck if this is a real concern for you. Note that a few ounces less of tuner weight, way out there at the end of the neck, will make a much bigger difference in balance than a body that is a few ounces heavier overall.
For you international types, 1 oz = 28 grams. You're welcome.

 

[DslDwg]

I don't agree that Sperzels are inherently heavy I have Sperzels in my thinline and it is not neck heavy. Maybe it's the model of Sperzels you're looking at ? I have the models called open backed/ sound lock and I will use them on every build I do.

If a Thinline is what you want I say go for it - of course get your questions answered but don't over analyze. I love mine. It is totally different from every other guitar that I own - and since I built it - all the others have sat idle.