The Grain Filler Thread

[swarfrat]

I've decided myself to use Z-Poxy for grain filler on my Korina strat. While looking around for info though, I found some videos on using Drywall Compound, yes, that's right Drywall. Umm  ok, looks interesting. I searched here and nothing came up, so I thought I'd start The Grain Filler Thread. Forgive me if this is out of line (links/policy/etc) or presumptuous (because I'm a total noob that's just Googling his way around.)  If anyone already has stuff they've written and would like to share, by all means please please contribute here.

Traditional Grain Fillers
Someone else please add this stuff as it entertains you, and maybe I'll edit it into this first post.

Alternative Grain Fillers
Epoxy - clear w/ an amber hue. Not compatible with oil finishes without a sealing coat.
Drywall - water based

Articles
LMI - Guitar Filler

Videos
O'Brien Guitars - Drywall as grain filler
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYHxMg7n9cI]MDLuthier - Z-poxy video 1
MDLuthier - Z-poxy video 2
MDLuthier - Z-poxy video 3

 

[Jusatele]

not a deep grain to fill there

 

[jackthehack]

Good luck with that...

Don't have any experience with Z-poxy/drywall, but there is no correlation between those videos and trying to fill grain on Korina.

Korina is a very "waxy" wood and using more traditional grain fillers like McFadden or Jasco oil based fillers or water based "plastic" fillers like StewMac Colortone it's real easy to sandmuch of the filler back out of the pores as it inherently doesn't want to adhere; the only wood as much of a pain in the ass to grain fill as Korina is Mahogany. If you try to use drywall compound, you'll just be sanding ALL that filler out.

Nothing is easy, but the StewMac Colortone fillers have worked best on Korina in my experience; if you don't like the default colors for your build, order the clear and you can use the Mixol tints from woodcraft.com to get the color you wnat.

 

[tangent]

I use Golden Acrylics High Solid Gel Medium for filling waxy woods.  http://www.goldenpaints.com/products/medsadds/gels/gels.php

It is a product made for artists but it is essentially the same thing as 'water based' acrylic varnishes or grain fillers.. the main difference is that this is a very thick product with higher percentage of acrylic solids and less water and other binders.  All acrylics cure when the water evaporates out of them, thus they shrink which is why it typically takes numerous coats to fill the grain.  This high solid gel does not shrink much at all and thus it is easier to fill grain with it, it also cures into a harder and more resilient film than most other acrylic products.  It should be applied with a putty knife, try to press the gel into the grain and then scrape all the excess off the top before it dries.

Epoxy will work just as well but the main benefits of this Gel are that its totally clear, no yellowing, no mixing so easier to use and its cheap since you only have to use a very small amount.

I actually have a new korina body arriving on Wednesday so I will be using this method soon =)

I have not used it on korina before but I have used it on goncalo and cocobolo (both of which are very oily), so I am confident it will work

 

[swarfrat]

The drywall thing was just interesting. I'm using Z-poxy myself, but I was kind hoping this thread could serve to accumulate more general knowledge on the subject of this step of finishing.

 

[bagman67]

Here's Behlen's company propaganda for its fillers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHVoXZk-PF0

Here's Charles Neil shilling for Woodcraft and Timbermate water-based filler:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJo2qbcwufc

 

[-CB-]

I used CA on Vic's blue sparkly Telecaster... came out babys ass smooth, with very little work (but a bit of that acrid CA stink).

 

[Jusatele]

I have found in the last 3 weeks, that this is a very subjective subject.
It seems that there are many different levels of grain sealer and what you want them to do is seal grain but not effect the overall finish, plus when sanding them down it is a natter of what you want the die to do. CB me great advice, and the sealer I bought was way to thin, so I have to thicken it up by evaporation. I have found that a medium texture works best, too thin and you are just creating a base you have to sand off, then you need to re stain. best advice I can give is do make it thick enough to be able to work it with a Credit Card, that way the end result is level, any thinner and it will run and you need more coats, that you will need to sand off.
Just what I have learned in the last 2 weeks.

 

[Danuda]

My body is coming in the mail today.  I am going to try the joint compound method as I hate working with the oil based filler I have right now.  The no fumes so I can work on it without a mask up in my living room is also a plus.  I will let you guys know how it goes.

 

[DangerousR6]

not a deep grain to fill there

"Pine cone" fretboard, that's killer funny... :toothy12: :toothy12:

 

[stomp]

Can anyone recommend any clear grain fillers? I've found the ColorTone, CrystaLac, AqueCoat, and Target Coatings.

 

[Cagey]

The Colortone is fairly clear, but it's also very thin, so you'll be sanding and refilling until your hair turns gray. Behlen's "Pour-O-Pac" is much better, but it's not truly clear; it has a milky cast to it, at least in bulk. The others I have no experience with.

 

[tangent]

water based grain fillers are almost always acrylic, they will typically be milky but they dry clear. 

acrylic dries very quickly in thin layers but exponentially slower in thicker applications, so if you pack it thickly into the grain it may take months to dry whereas a thin layer may take less than a minute to dry.  That is the reason why acrylic grain fillers are typically thin, and why the thick ones often turn out looking milky rather than transparent.. because most people put poly or another finish over them before they fully dry and they never become totally clear (acrylic is breathable like lacquer, poly is not)

The best thing about acrylic grain fillers however is that you don't need to sand at all, dried acrylic film can be wiped off with solvents like ethanol, acetone, MEK, etc.. and as you wipe the excess off the top, some of the excess will be redeposited into any remaining crevices in the grain, thus making grain filling extremely quick and painless =)

I use Golden high solids clear gel which is thick but dries quickly because its a low water formulation (can't be poured, should be applied with a silicone spatula).  DecoArt triple thick gloss glaze can be poured and also works well, you can buy it at Michael's craft store for $2.. much cheaper than ColorTone, etc..

 

[bpmorton777]

Im curious if using a sealer like bullseye before gainfilling mahagany is going to make it less likely to sand out of the pours??

Brian

 

[Tonar8352]

Im curious if using a sealer like bullseye before gainfilling mahagany is going to make it less likely to sand out of the pours??

With traditional fillers the advantage of sealing prior to grain filling it twofold, many grain fillers tend to color the wood to some extent so if the surface is sealed then the natural color of the wood changes less.  This is really important when using dark grain filler where one only wants the dark color in the deep grain of the wood. The second advantage is it helps but does not eliminate the filler from shrinking in as bad as it does on unsealed wood.  Unsealed wood draws moister out of fillers so the materials tend to shrink more dramatically than when it is setting on a seal surface.

The best way to seal wood prior to filling is with wash coats meaning heavily thinned.  A wash coat tends to flow down into the pours better and soak into the wood more deeply so that it has a more effective sealing action.

 

[Firebird211]

Im curious if using a sealer like bullseye before gainfilling mahagany is going to make it less likely to sand out of the pours??

With traditional fillers the advantage of sealing prior to grain filling it twofold, many grain fillers tend to color the wood to some extent so if the surface is sealed then the natural color of the wood changes less.  This is really important when using dark grain filler where one only wants the dark color in the deep grain of the wood. The second advantage is it helps but does not eliminate the filler from shrinking in as bad as it does on unsealed wood.  Unsealed wood draws moister out of fillers so the materials tend to shrink more dramatically than when it is setting on a seal surface.

The best way to seal wood prior to filling is with wash coats meaning heavily thinned.  A wash coat tends to flow down into the pours better and soak into the wood more deeply so that it has a more effective sealing action.

I have a related question to this, but just on a different wood type.  I have Timbermate grain filler and I was testing it on a small piece of wood, but I didn't like how much it tinted the wood and also tinted darker in some spots.  It filled the grain just fine, but I was wondering for a Goncallo headstock could someone get away with just using Zinsser's sanding sealer.  The chunk of wood isn't the same tint or pore quality of Goncallo, but using a small chunk of cotton fabric around a few cotton balls I was able to apply several thin layers which made the shallow grain dissapear alltogether.  To test this I applied grain filler on half and nothing on the other half. It wouldn't work on most woods, but it seems like you can apply a few thin bonding layers and sand down, then build up more layers without a grain filler.  If this method is bogus, I could very well apply the method that you just said Tonar.  I also would like to add that the Timbermate has a smell that is closely related to dookie. :laughing7:

 

[-CB-]

What Tonar said - depends on teh wood somewhat though (ie, maple vs mahogany vs ash)

 

[Jusatele]

now my last build was swamp ash with a stain, so that the grain stood out, my next build will be a solid color paint and I think I will use ADLER, How much filler does Adler need and if we are going to paint, what are some good filler/preps to use?

 

[Tonar8352]

On alder just seal it with your sealer of choice and finish it. 

 

[DangerousR6]

Im curious if using a sealer like bullseye before gainfilling mahagany is going to make it less likely to sand out of the pours??

With traditional fillers the advantage of sealing prior to grain filling it twofold, many grain fillers tend to color the wood to some extent so if the surface is sealed then the natural color of the wood changes less.  This is really important when using dark grain filler where one only wants the dark color in the deep grain of the wood. The second advantage is it helps but does not eliminate the filler from shrinking in as bad as it does on unsealed wood.  Unsealed wood draws moister out of fillers so the materials tend to shrink more dramatically than when it is setting on a seal surface.

The best way to seal wood prior to filling is with wash coats meaning heavily thinned.  A wash coat tends to flow down into the pours better and soak into the wood more deeply so that it has a more effective sealing action.

I have a related question to this, but just on a different wood type.  I have Timbermate grain filler and I was testing it on a small piece of wood, but I didn't like how much it tinted the wood and also tinted darker in some spots.  It filled the grain just fine, but I was wondering for a Goncallo headstock could someone get away with just using Zinsser's sanding sealer.  The chunk of wood isn't the same tint or pore quality of Goncallo, but using a small chunk of cotton fabric around a few cotton balls I was able to apply several thin layers which made the shallow grain dissapear alltogether.  To test this I applied grain filler on half and nothing on the other half. It wouldn't work on most woods, but it seems like you can apply a few thin bonding layers and sand down, then build up more layers without a grain filler.  If this method is bogus, I could very well apply the method that you just said Tonar.  I also would like to add that the Timbermate has a smell that is closely related to dookie. :laughing7:

Not sure why you would even want to do that to Goncalo, it doesn't need a finish. truthfully I wouldn't do anything to Goncalo unless for some odd reason I wanted say a headstock face to match a painted body... :dontknow: