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Telecaster Koa 1-Piece body arrived

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Punxsutawney

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It sure looks nice here doesn't it!  It really looks fantastic; look at that wood!  It's so beautiful!

My package just arrived and I have been looking forward to this one.  It has hurt to get this: the store price was outrageous, the courier fees were extraordinary, the exchange rate was a major hit at 26%, which also applies to the courier fee.  The Australian customs taxes were numerous and large; some of them I've never even heard of!  The pictures of the body, on Warmoth's website make it look worth it though, doesn't it!

Was it?

It's not red; it's not red at all!  It's very dark and brown and lifeless.  The grains are faint, even in bright day light.  In normal room light? – well – forget about it.  It gets worse!  The wood doesn't look like wood.  It's got this strange plastic coating on it.  It doesn't feel like wood; it looks like plastic and feels as such.  If I didn't know – and do I? – I would think it's plastic pretending to be wood – it's just that bad!  The overall workmanship feels shoddy too.  That picture is as good as a lie!  I'm utterly horrified!  What have I done?
 
What did you expect? There's no such thing as Koa. It's an acronym - stands for "Kind of artificial". The wood nymphs that live in the forests of Oregon came up with it along with a backstory about it being native to Hawaii because they felt sorry for those people, what with their language's pitiful lack of consonants. I thought everybody knew that  :laughing7:
 
Cagey said:
What did you expect? There's no such thing as Koa. It's an acronym - stands for "Kind of artificial". The wood nymphs that live in the forests of Oregon came up with it along with a backstory about it being native to Hawaii because they felt sorry for those people, what with their language's pitiful lack of consonants. I thought everybody knew that  :laughing7:

That's funny! .... and I was considering an all ebony neck for this too!  Apparently, there must be a lot of wood nymphs in them hills out in Oregon.  I actually read up on "diospyros macassar" and "diospyros melanoxylon" (i.e Warmoth's ebony species names) and that turned up some eye opening information.  The former name might not exist; I couldn't find jack on it.  The latter name is not from Africa, nor is it known for it's dark hard wood, but instead it's bark is used for cigarettes.  They smoke it!

If it's from India, you want "diospyros ebenum".  If it's from Africa, you want "diospyros crassiflora".  If you want ebony macassar, you want "diospyros celebica".

So what the hell are you getting if it's called "diospyros macassar"?

Them nymphs; they've been busy!  :laughing3:
 
Punxsutawney said:
Them nymphs; they've been busy!  :laughing3:

Not too busy. Have you ever been to Oregon? Ain't much to do but eat, sleep and reproduce, unless you're a lumberjack.

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Not that there's anything wrong with that...

So, the nymphs have to find ways to amuse themselves. As much fun as eating, sleeping and reproducing can be, it does leave one wanting. As I'm sure you're aware, few things are quite as entertaining as inventing synthetic materials with which to dupe budding young luthiers. So, here we are. What to do, what to do. I guess if it was me, I'd still be putting a neck on that body. Otherwise, the dingos are liable to get at it, and you know how much they hate Koa. There won't be anything left of it by the time they're through.
 
Cagey said:
Punxsutawney said:
Them nymphs; they've been busy!  :laughing3:

Not too busy. Have you ever been to Oregon? Ain't much to do but eat, sleep and reproduce, unless you're a lumberjack.

k2AqBWT.jpg


Not that there's anything wrong with that...

So, the nymphs have to find ways to amuse themselves. As much fun as eating, sleeping and reproducing can be, it does leave one wanting. As I'm sure you're aware, few things are quite as entertaining as inventing synthetic materials with which to dupe budding young luthiers. So, here we are. What to do, what to do. I guess if it was me, I'd still be putting a neck on that body. Otherwise, the dingos are liable to get at it, and you know how much they hate Koa. There won't be anything left of it by the time they're through.

I'm Australian; you have too many states over there to keep track of.  I know very little about Oregon and I haven't been there.  I notice it's very close to where Warmoth are based though.

On a serious note, yeah I've gotta put a neck on this thing.  That was always a given.  It's a piece of crap and Warmoth have played me.  They're not guitar makers at heart, they're there for profit and to manipulate for it any way they can!  They quoted me $US885.00 for a custom guitar neck made of "diospyros macassar".  As far as I'm aware that species doesn't exist; it's a play on words.  They quoted me a lot more ($US1135.00) for a tree people smoke, that isn't that hard or black!  It's not like tonewood matters though, it's only there for beauty, but it did fail utterly in that respect.  This thing's ugly cheap, but it won't stop it working as a guitar.  Well, it feels fragile and if I accidentally knock it, it might? If I don't knock it, it should play fine because it's the electronics that matter!  Ultimately, the next guitar will be the one I worry about; I'll just get a cheap neck for this and use it as the crash test dummy/learning experience!  Have you got any suggestions?
 
Punxsutawney said:
...I actually read up on "diospyros macassar" and "diospyros melanoxylon" (i.e Warmoth's ebony species names) and that turned up some eye opening information.  The former name might not exist...

...If you want ebony macassar, you want "diospyros celebica".

So what the hell are you getting if it's called "diospyros macassar"?
Punxsutawney said:
They quoted me $US995.00 for a custom guitar neck made of "diospyros macassar".  As far as I'm aware that species doesn't exist; it's a play on words.

For whatever it's worth, according to Wikipedia Diospyros celebica is more commonly known as Makassar ebony. I don't smell any deception, although wood names are frequently a source of confusion...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diospyros_celebica
 
Well, there's always the possibility to return it.
But if you were to take some pictures of it along with the Warmoth ones and show them here for all forumites I'm pretty sure the majority will find it, the body, an awesome piece of wood.
And as for how it feels - of course it doesn't feel like wood - it has got a finish on it. That's what you're feeling. :icon_jokercolor:
 
Logrinn said:
Well, there's always the possibility to return it.
But if you were to take some pictures of it along with the Warmoth ones and show them here for all forumites I'm pretty sure the majority will find it, the body, an awesome piece of wood.
And as for how it feels - of course it doesn't feel like wood - it has got a finish on it. That's what you're feeling. :icon_jokercolor:

Yes, but no.  I'm Australian.  The customs taxes are non refundable and they were considerable.  I doubt the courier fee would be refunded either; it also hurt!  There will probably be a penalty for returning it as well and I might even have to pay for it to be returned.

The picture does not reflect what the actual guitar looks like however; the difference is such that your mind is trying to reconcile they are the same product, despite realising they are.  If I take them to consumer affairs, I'd have to do that in America, not here.  I think that will be too difficult.  There is no red tinge in this thing at all!  I joked in another thread that I'd be devastated if it turned out to be pink.  That was meant as a joke.  I didn't imagine it could ever be the reality.  Of course this body is not pink, it's gone the other way instead; it's brown and lifeless!  That store page picture does not tell the truth!
 
-VB- said:
Punxsutawney said:
...I actually read up on "diospyros macassar" and "diospyros melanoxylon" (i.e Warmoth's ebony species names) and that turned up some eye opening information.  The former name might not exist...

...If you want ebony macassar, you want "diospyros celebica".

So what the hell are you getting if it's called "diospyros macassar"?
Punxsutawney said:
They quoted me $US995.00 for a custom guitar neck made of "diospyros macassar".  As far as I'm aware that species doesn't exist; it's a play on words.

For whatever it's worth, according to Wikipedia Diospyros celebica is more commonly known as Makassar ebony. I don't smell any deception, although wood names are frequently a source of confusion...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diospyros_celebica

Macassar ebony, or Makassar ebony is a layman term for "diospyros celebica", not "diospyros macassar".  The wood acquired the name "Macassar" because of the name of the Indonesian port close to where the tree grows.  Warmoth telling you it is "diospyros macassar" creates confusion.  I cannot find any species by that specific scientific name.  It's a play on words designed to confuse and manipulate.  The convenient thing about that for Warmoth, is a customer has no claim they were deceived, if it's not "diospyros celebica", because they never said it was.
 
VB's right - wood names can be confusing, misapplied or simply changed for marketing reasons. For example, we can start with black or (white) Korina. There's no such thing. It's actually black Limba. I can't find the source now, but my understanding is that Ted McCarty (Gibson's CEO in the late '50s, early '60s) named it after his daughter, Korina. I don't remember why calling it by it's proper name was unacceptable. Gibson used that wood for their "modern" design guitars in the late '50s - the Flying V, Moderne, and Explorer. Everybody's been calling it Korina ever since.

Another one is "Flamed Maple". There's no such thing. It's curly Maple. Go to a lumber yard and ask for flamed Maple, and unless the guy you're talking to is a guitar player, he'll look at you funny. "Flamed" Maple is a finish I think is also credited to Gibson, where a body with a curly Maple face is dyed yellow, then gradually transitioned to red at the edges and finally clear coated. When you move the body in the light, the natural chatoyance of the wood makes the curls seem to move, sorta giving the impression of a flame...

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They sometimes call that a sunburst finish, too, for its resemblance to that. Today, it doesn't matter what color it is, including clear. If it's curly, guitarists call it a flame. Same with the "bursts". Doesn't have to look like the sun; if it transitions from a light center out to darker edges, guitarists will call it a 'burst.

As for your body's "plastic" feel, that's because that's what it's finished with. Or, more accurately, polyurethane. They grain fill the wood first with a polyester compound to level it out, then the urethane goes over that. Once it's buffed out, it's a very glossy and very level surface, so there's no woody texture to it. It's what all the manufacturers use these days, as lacquer is a very time-consuming finish to get right. Another benefit to the urethane is its durability. It'll take a helluva lot more abuse without showing it than any other finish. It's also impervious to most solvents and liquids, and won't fade or shrink. With the proper chemistry, finishing can be a one-shot deal, where they shoot it and hang to cure, and they're essentially done with it. Nothing else comes close to its combination of beauty, utility, ease of application and low maintenance requirements. Unfortunately, polyurethane as a guitar finish developed a bad reputation in the early years of its use due to the way Fender was applying it, which resulted in a very thick finish. While it didn't/doesn't matter on electric guitars, no "real" luthier would use it on acoustics due to a fear of its possible vibration damping quality and the resultant tonal deterioration. The "bad tone" word spread without the acoustic vs. solid body distinction though, and and even today you'll hear guys pooh-pooh the idea of putting a urethane finish on any guitar. It's a silly, undeserved reputation, but there it is.

I don't know what quality issues you have with your body, but sometimes people are surprised to see "fuzz" in the cavities, or maybe even some polishing compound residue. Cavities don't get any attention from the sanders, so when the finish goes on any wood fiber will show up more and feel rough, and when it gets buffed out sometimes that rough surface will catch fibers from the buffing wheel. If there's anything more than that, you should take it up with Warmoth. For what they charge, you are to receive a very high-end body. Anything less is unacceptable to them as much as to you. They have a reputation to uphold, if nothing else.

As for a neck recommendation, you can still go high-end without spending a ton of money. Do the black Ebony over roasted Maple I mentioned before. Trust me, you won't be sorry. That's a great neck combination both in appearance and playability, and it won't break the bank. Plus, it'll look fantastic on that body.

I hope that calms you a bit - I thought you were kidding earlier about your dissatisfaction, or I'd never have gotten flippant about it. I thought I was just playing along with what you started. Sorry about that.
 
Punxsutawney said:
Fat Pete said:
Post some pictures?

I don't have a camera.

You don't? Not a phone with a camera, not anybody you know nearby with one?

We say round here - usually in happier circumstances - pictures or it doesn't exist.

BTW, 'brown and lifeless' sounds like a pretty good description of a piece of wood.
 
Speaking of wood, another "quality" issue you'll see sometimes show up happens in the case of one-piece bodies. Laminations have a tendency to deaden vibrations (read: eat tone). Knock on a piece of plywood vs a solid piece of wood of the same dimensions, and you don't need a trained ear to hear the difference. But, somehow in the guitar buying public's mind edge-gluing two pieces of wood together qualifies as a lamination. That means a one-piece body is considered a superior part, and for that reason alone will command a higher price.

Unfortunately, as we gradually chew through or burn down the supply of old growth hardwood, it's getting tougher to get flawless pieces wood large enough to make a guitar body in one chunk. So, now we combine desirability with rarity, and the price climbs even more. Because of that, it also means that if you do find a piece large enough to make a whole body at once, maybe you forgive a flaw or two and/or accept a less-than-stunning grain pattern in the interest of supplying a highly sought-after part that's close enough for rock 'n' roll.

Fortunately, Warmoth supplies professional pictures of the actual part you're buying, so you go into the deal knowing what you're going to get.
 
Cagey said:
VB's right - wood names can be confusing, misapplied or simply changed for marketing reasons. For example, we can start with black or (white) Korina. There's no such thing. It's actually black Limba. I can't find the source now, but my understanding is that Ted McCarty (Gibson's CEO in the late '50s, early '60s) named it after his daughter, Korina...............
....They sometimes call that a sunburst finish, too. Today, it doesn't matter what color it is, including clear. If it's curly, it's a flame. Same with the burst. Doesn't have to be sunny colors, if it intensifies center out from a light to dark, it's a 'burst.
All very true and no disagreement here.  Ultimately though, if "Ebony Macassar" turns out to be "diospyros macassar" and not "diospyros celebica" who benefits?  Who is being placed into a position, where you can easily make a mistake and think you're getting something when you're not?  None of us customers know what we are buying when it's called "diospyros macassar"; it doesn't mean anything and it's made up.  That's what you're buying; a complete unknown that is impossible to research.  A very despicable look!

Cagey said:
Unfortunately, polyurethane as a guitar finish developed a bad reputation in the early years of its use due to the way Fender was applying it, which resulted in a very thick finish.
I wonder how much the finish is interfering with the wood's presentation.  For me, this finish looks and feels nasty cheap.  I don't know much about finish theory, but I don't like what I see and feel.  The biggest issue for me however, is the store picture lies!  It's not what I bought or wanted.  I really fell in love with that red.  This is not that; this is not remotely red!  The pattern on the product is also fainter, but possibly because it's brown.  Even if the changes turned out to be, a different beautiful, that's still not a good outcome.  You want the store page picture to be accurate – it needs to be accurate! – because sooner or later you'll end up losing, as I have.  I remember you mentioning in a prior thread, buy from the Showcase because you can see what you get.  I agree with that, but with Warmoth that has turned out to be unreliable.

Cagey said:
For what they charge, you are to receive a very high-end body. Anything less is unacceptable to them as much as to you. They have a reputation to uphold, if nothing else.
I think I got played!  The stark difference between the store page picture and the actual product is not a good look.  I'm also concerned with a quote for $~US900.00 for a custom all ebony neck, made from an unknown material, that I would be unable to complain about if it's not what I thought.

Cagey said:
As for a neck recommendation, you can still go high-end without spending a ton of money. Do the black Ebony over roasted Maple I mentioned before. Trust me, you won't be sorry. That's a great neck combination both in appearance and playability, and it won't break the bank. Plus, it'll look fantastic on that body.
I'm done with Warmoth.  My question was more about other alternatives and I should have elaborated that.  I've have asked Warmoth for a full refund of the payment I made for a prior custom neck.  Earlier today, I did consider an unfinished maple neck for $US159.00, but then I thought another $US100.00 for postage as well.  Then the thought of dealing with Warmoth again kicked in and I realised it was not an option.  I cannot help but wonder if my experience is a reason why Warmoth parts have poor resale value; is it because of their quality?

Cagey said:
I hope that calms you a bit - I thought you were kidding earlier about your dissatisfaction, or I'd never have gotten flippant about it. I thought I was just playing along with what you started. Sorry about that.
I'm more numb about it; there's something humiliating about being played unfortunately.  There's also the disappointment and the wasted money too.  I still want to learn about building guitars though. It's all good about your earlier comments; I wasn't that fussed and it's an understandable misinterpretation, but wait ..... does this mean there are no nymphs in Oregon?  I was going to be a tourist; that's off the bucket list!
 
Fat Pete said:
Punxsutawney said:
Fat Pete said:
Post some pictures?

I don't have a camera.

You don't? Not a phone with a camera, not anybody you know nearby with one?

We say round here - usually in happier circumstances - pictures or it doesn't exist.

BTW, 'brown and lifeless' sounds like a pretty good description of a piece of wood.

I am going to have great problems winning GOM and that was before I saw this actual guitar body!

There is a serious inherent problem when the store pictures do not reflect the actual product.  Sooner or later you're not going to like the difference.  There is no excuse for an incorrect presentation, even if the outcome is acceptable for the client, or even better than what they expected.

In my particular example, the difference is not subtle and horrifically wrong.  I was in love with that red colour, as much as I was with that one-piece koa body; it was a critical reason I went through all the financial obstacles to buy it!
 
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