Suhr, Xotic, Fender CS, etc. vs High-End Warmoth

[TBurst Std]

Congrats
PS I did pick up that Tele I was eyeballing for months. CS 52 Tele

Start a thread on a review of the Overtone Special

 

[alexreinhold]

Congrats
PS I did pick up that Tele I was eyeballing for months. CS 52 Tele

Start a thread on a review of the Overtone Special

Did you get a relic one or NOS? I find it so hard to find non-relic CS models these days..

Will definitely post a review of the amp. Did a lot of research and am very curious if it holds up to its reputation

 

[TBurst Std]

It’s a relic. Not my preference, but I don’t care. It’s about tone, functionality and playability.

 

[TBurst Std]

https://imgur.com/xbAAOiu

 

[alexreinhold]

OK, I did pull the trigger. I asked Thomann to prepare 8 guitars for me to test + i picked another 5 from shelves. I tried various Fender CS guitars, various Suhrs, a PRS and a Maybach. All of them in the price range 3000€-9000€. I had my favorite Warmoth strat with me and extensively compared all guitars with my cousin (who is a sound engineer and has an incredible ear) for tone and playability.

Bottom line: I would NOT have bought 12 of the 13 guitars I tried. I was already imagining my next build.

But then there was this one Suhr Paulownia Classic S (which had my least favorable design, as I was actually going for pink, cream or a strong sonic blue). And I certainly did not want a tortoise pickguard. But there it was - that feeling. It completely overshadowed all the other guitars. The setup, the neck wood, the playability, the tone. It just felt so incredibly right. Luckily, I currently have enough cash to make myself this wonderful xmas present... You can find a picture of my favorite Warmoth hanging with its new Suhr friend below.

PS: the head of Thomann's custom shop department (who owns a few Warmoth necks himself) told me that he sees absolutely no quality difference in my strat (which he gave a lengthy test drive and ended up loving) and most expensive custom guitars they sell - pretty much validating what we have concluded here.
PPS: the color is trans sonic blue. The more light, the more it looks like white. The less light, the more it looks like blue. Super confusing.

 

[TBurst Std]

That's gorgeous. Congrats!

That neck is stunning to look at. And yes sonic blue is like that. If you don't like the tort guard, that's an easy fix.

I don't know why it is, but often the one is the girl sitting all alone at the back corner of the dance.

I had another GAS attack yesterday on Festivus. See the For Sale section here. Yep Gibson J-45 in route.

 

[Waraxe]

3 to 5k , I would start 3 to 5 new warmoth builds

Same here. 3 to 5 starts would mean none are complete. I could do 2 or maybe 3 tops. I have expensive tastes, I guess.

I think its a tinkerers age old question. Why pay for a contractor when I can build it myself? Why pay for a table if I can build it myself? Why buy a guitar if I can build it myself?

There are those that are tinkerers and those that just arent. I love to tinker. I can count on one hand how many electrics I own that are the same as when they left the factory. The rest are parts casters or have been modded by me sometimes just a pickup change or other times more extensive.

I have met plenty of guitar players and other hobbyests that love their respective hobbies like LEGO for example. There are those who collect LEGO sets and those who collect LEGO bricks to build whatever they can imagine. Is one "better" than the other? Nope and thats ok.

I absolutely wouldnt pay for a Suhr or Anderson or Fender CS but thats because I know that even if I ordered exactly what I wanted today, I would still change it up in the next 2-3 years so instead I build guitars I like from parts I can find or make and have exactly what I want.

Each person has a different goal fot their guitar playing journey and no path is better than the other.

So true! I'm a tinkerer at heart, but am realizing it's far easier to exchange a bit of money to get certain things done. Guitars are one of those things that I still do.

Well rule 1, buy used. That 5k guitars is now 2.5-3k. And you get to try before you buy. You already know what you’re getting.

True, but you're limited in scope of spec.

I think that's the part that's messing with my OCD. We have these in-depth conversations about what factors make up tone and I guess we all agree that it's 99% pickups and amp/effects. How is it then possible that I sometimes pick up an instrument with specs very familiar to me but it just sounds stunning - oh, and vice versa of course. 1+1=2, right?


I absolutely love my Warmoth guitars. I can say with full confidence that, for my taste, my builds outperform 99% of all shelf guitars in a store. That's why I keep building rather than buying. But as I said, you sometimes get your hands on a CS that suddenly seems to be on another level. And it's not just setup I think.


Gonna try a few Suhrs at Thomann next week. Wanna see how they play - it's crazy how many people are raving on about their quality..

I think the level of personalization is directly related to the satisfaction level. I feel the same way about my guitars. It takes something special for me to go "wow" when I visit music stores.



My theory on why the higher end stuff is that much better.
It ain't the hardware. That is pretty much available on non custom stuff.
Is it the setup? I don't think so. If it was, then all guitars could be at that level.
I think it's wood selection and mating at the production level. They can choose whatever they feel will work, compared to the next body or neck in the pile or on the line. They can also try a different neck or body if the combo is a dog. I've heard of builders scraping guitars because they sound bad. This HAS to be it.

 

[Spud]

Alex, you are a smooth operator! Congratulations!

 

[stultzies9]

OK, I did pull the trigger. I asked Thomann to prepare 8 guitars for me to test + i picked another 5 from shelves. I tried various Fender CS guitars, various Suhrs, a PRS and a Maybach. All of them in the price range 3000€-9000€. I had my favorite Warmoth strat with me and extensively compared all guitars with my cousin (who is a sound engineer and has an incredible ear) for tone and playability.

Bottom line: I would NOT have bought 12 of the 13 guitars I tried. I was already imagining my next build.

But then there was this one Suhr Paulownia Classic S (which had my least favorable design, as I was actually going for pink, cream or a strong sonic blue). And I certainly did not want a tortoise pickguard. But there it was - that feeling. It completely overshadowed all the other guitars. The setup, the neck wood, the playability, the tone. It just felt so incredibly right. Luckily, I currently have enough cash to make myself this wonderful xmas present... You can find a picture of my favorite Warmoth hanging with its new Suhr friend below.

PS: the head of Thomann's custom shop department (who owns a few Warmoth necks himself) told me that he sees absolutely no quality difference in my strat (which he gave a lengthy test drive and ended up loving) and most expensive custom guitars they sell - pretty much validating what we have concluded here.
PPS: the color is trans sonic blue. The more light, the more it looks like white. The less light, the more it looks like blue. Super confusing.

View attachment 63721

That's the same model of Suhr as my buddy here in town owns. It's a KILLER guitar! Great pick, man!

 

[alexreinhold]

I don't know why it is, but often the one is the girl sitting all alone at the back corner of the dance.

100% - I kind of love that. It's either the very first pick that clicks right away or the very random one you didn't even consider.

That's the same model of Suhr as my buddy here in town owns. It's a KILLER guitar! Great pick, man!

After a few days, I can only confirm that I do not regret a single cent I spent for it.

 

[BroccoliRob]

Is it the setup? I don't think so. If it was, then all guitars could be at that level

could, sure, but they ain't/aren't and it's because of $$$ and

 

[mrpinter]

There is a saying, mostly heard around artisan builders of things, that seems to be axiomatic. It is: to become a master of your craft you have to put in 10,000 hours of serious time at it (be it practice time, or time building your products, etc.). It seems to hold remarkably true, both as principle, generalization, and actual fact, and I submit it seems to be true of guitar builders. A guitar company doesn't produce high end guitars, luthiers do; and the higher end and more respected in the industry you go, the more this rule applies. Take the master builders in the Fender Custom Shop for example. Each of them has probably logged those kind of hours before they became master builders.

We all know that hurriedly trained workers in some Asian factory can put together guitars with the same hardware, and *pretty much* the same woods, even using *pretty much* the same assembly methods as a luthier in a quality custom shop. Their guitar can look a lot like one built by the luthier. And sometimes they can feel and sound *pretty close* - to the novice player. I'm talking about small lutheries more than big companies here, and instruments that generally cost more than Suhrs or PRS's. The difference between these instruments and the low cost imports and - to a lesser extent - high end but high production guitars, is kind of a Zen thing. It is instruments in which every single thing (materials selection and quality, assembly, setup, and a thousand tiny details) was joined together and works together harmoniously - as a whole. Quality like this simply can't be replicated by slapping together parts taken from bins.

I'm just a designer, and glorified "gopher" in my company. But the people that work for me have logged their 10,000 hours (and more). We strive towards the model I've described above. And in the industry as a whole we are at the low end of the "high end" price spectrum, but hopefully not at the bottom of that model.

My little monograph isn't intended to dishearten any of you beloved brothers in this guitar art. I've had more than a few Warmoth guitars built for me - by professionals, adhering mostly to my requirements. And they turned out - in my humble opinion - at least as good as any Fender or Gibson. But I've also put in some 40 years in the industry. Not building guitars (although I've dabbled a bit) but in design and marketing and artist relations. My part in this Zen process is limited to design, and to some extent, selection of materials and hardware (and management of the company, of course). The materials we use, and the knowledge and time involved, costs a lot, which makes our guitars seem expensive to a lot of people. But then, we don't make products for "a lot of people". Those of you here who have built dozens - even hundreds - of guitars from Warmoth parts (primarily); if you valued your time based on experience, and then added up the time spent in building your guitars, you might be shocked at how much you would have to price them.

I hope I have been lucid enough to at least make a good attempt at answering Alex's question at the beginning of this thread.

 

[Rick]

I have to agree with that 10,000 hour rule. First saw that in Malcom Cladwell's book Outliars, and I think it's mentioned in Guitar Zero by Marcus. If you have an intellectual bent highly recommended. You can see how the Beatles built up the hours by playing 10 hours a day in Hamburg for weeks on end. I wish I could do that.

 

[Bob Hoover Ross]

3 to 5k , I would start 3 to 5 new warmoth builds

I would start 2 to 4 new Warmoth build, and then pay for someone far more patient and detail-oriented than I to assemble them!

 

[Spud]

I have to agree with that 10,000 hour rule. First saw that in Malcom Cladwell's book Outliars, and I think it's mentioned in Guitar Zero by Marcus. If you have an intellectual bent highly recommended. You can see how the Beatles built up the hours by playing 10 hours a day in Hamburg for weeks on end. I wish I could do that.

I have been told time and again by the ladies that I must have put 10,000 hours into the art of love.

 

[aarontunes]

I've owned many topflight bolt-on brands over the years: Melancon, Grosh, Suhr, high-end Ibanez, ESP, Fender CS, EBMM, etc. I've sampled many others at NAMM and other places. At this point it takes a lot to blow my socks off.

Fancy/exotic woods don't really do it any more. Neither does craftsmanship, because after a certain point craftsmanship, fretwork, setup, etc are mostly a given. Let's face it: after about $1500 we are beyond the point of diminishing returns. There are really only two things that make a 2k, 3k, or 5k guitar worth it for me:

1. Specs, and specs are completely a matter of taste. Do you prefer the way Grosh balls the fret ends, or do you like the Suhr approach of a dramatically rounded fretboard edge? Do you prefer the EBMM neck carve, or the Fender CS? Tyler "Burning Water" or EBMM's Gold Flake?

2. Artistic design. I'm probably not gonna pay 4k for another Strat...not when I can usually get exactly the specs I want from Warmoth, and build it myself to be as good as anything. But show me an elegant, original design I can't get from Warmoth and I'm hooked.

The last guitar that absolutely rocked my world was a (set neck) Hartung Embrace that I played at NAMM in 2019. I still wake up screaming because I didn't buy it.

 

[alexreinhold]

I would start 2 to 4 new Warmoth build, and then pay for someone far more patient and detail-oriented than I to assemble them!

If you live in Europe, you pay 400€ extra for customs and shipping per guitar! This brings you to a grand total of roundabout 2000€ for parts (+/- 300). Paying someone to assemble with full patience would cost you at least 500€. That puts you to 2500€ - that's 2 Warmoth builds if you compare to my upper end (which is 5000€). I paid 4300€ for my Suhr.

Neither does craftsmanship, because after a certain point craftsmanship, fretwork, setup, etc are mostly a given.

Given that you have owned all these high-end brands before, you probably understand my rationale. I wanted to have a benchmark for my own craftsmanship + something that inspires me. The Suhr I picked up inspired me to the core and I felt that every detail was perfect. For my next build, I now set the bar - although I must say, my other builds are not much worse (at all!). As you said, law of diminishing returns...