"Stealthing" a pup under the pickguard: NOOB to this idea

[tfarny]

I'm obviously in the minority, but this is just 100% about looks, right? Just seems like losing pickup height adjustment ability, and being stuck with the pickups pretty far from the strings, is not a winner at least to me. When you switch to the high-output hidden bucker, is the audience really going to go "woah!  he must have a turbo under the hood! " Or will they think, "ah that's what a variax sounds like"

Couple thoughts that might help: 720 mod. No angled neck pocket. Thicker strings.

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

Couple thoughts that might help: 720 mod. No angled neck pocket. Thicker strings.

720 mod and pickguard can only be used on a 21 fret neck.

 

[AutoBat]

Couple thoughts that might help: 720 mod. No angled neck pocket. Thicker strings.

720 mod and pickguard can only be used on a 21 fret neck.

720 is to eliminate the fretboard extension gap on rear routed, non-pickguard necks. 21 frets don't even have the gap.
you can have the 720 mod regardless of number of frets as long as you are rear routed & don't have an angled neck pocket.

 

[B3Guy]

I'm obviously in the minority, but this is just 100% about looks, right? Just seems like losing pickup height adjustment ability, and being stuck with the pickups pretty far from the strings, is not a winner at least to me. When you switch to the high-output hidden bucker, is the audience really going to go "woah!  he must have a turbo under the hood! " Or will they think, "ah that's what a variax sounds like"

Couple thoughts that might help: 720 mod. No angled neck pocket. Thicker strings.

yeah. with 21 frets, that would help a lot, methinks . . .

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

720 is to eliminate the fretboard extension gap on rear routed, non-pickguard necks. 21 frets don't even have the gap.
you can have the 720 mod regardless of number of frets as long as you are rear routed & don't have an angled neck pocket.

I'm trying to think of a way to reply w/out sounding snippy, but we're saying the same thing.  I said you can't, you gave the why.  Since the whole meat of this thread involves putting pickups under the pickguard, if getting the 720 mod AND A PICKGUARD, which these would be, only a 21 fret neck will work.

 

[tfarny]

720 seems like the only sure way of getting the pickup reasonably close to the strings. I've never had a guitar that sounded its best with the pickups really far from the strings.

 

[B3Guy]

720 seems like the only sure way of getting the pickup reasonably close to the strings. I've never had a guitar that sounded its best with the pickups really far from the strings.

like I said, there are certain pickup properties that can make a pup a better candidate for stealthing. I was mostly wondering if anyone has stealthed, and what pups they have found work well.

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

I was considereing doing it with my EMGs.  They are high output to begin with, backing them way off under a pickguard would make them sound medium or low output.  Then again, they would inherently sound different than intended because that's not what they were designed to do.  I can't help but wonder though, if hiding them worked well and sounded good, they'd still be doing it.

 

[B3Guy]

I was considereing doing it with my EMGs.  They are high output to begin with, backing them way off under a pickguard would make them sound medium or low output.  Then again, they would inherently sound different than intended because that's not what they were designed to do.  I can't help but wonder though, if hiding them worked well and sounded good, they'd still be doing it.

once again, high output (from what I understand) does not necessarily guarantee a pup will stealth well. The important factor is the size of the pup's "sweet spot", (or the invisible magnetic field). a pup with high output can easily have a very small/concentrated magnetic field . . . and as soon as you move the pup in relation to the string, the string may be far away from the sweet spot. You need a pup with a larger magnetic field, which (I think) has more to do with the size and type of magnet. Output has more to do with the number of winds on the pup (I think).  :icon_thumright:

anybody with knowledge of electromagnetic stuff want to weigh in?

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

You're right.  That made me think too, EMGs are actually a low output pickup with a weak magnetic field.  The internal preamp boosts the output.  So EMGs would in fact be a poor candidate for this.

 

[B3Guy]

it's not so much about the "strength" of the field, as it is about the "range" of it. (although, strength probably helps). I'm just curious if there is anyone here with sufficient scientific knowledge to identify the factors that determine a pickup's range.

 

[OzziePete]

You're right.  That made me think too, EMGs are actually a low output pickup with a weak magnetic field.  The internal preamp boosts the output.  So EMGs would in fact be a poor candidate for this.

General consensus about EMGs is that they have to be close to the strings, a lot of players criticise that as it impedes their picking style if they are a heavy strummer. EMGs would be poor candidates indeed.

I'd be thinking more of the old horseshoe and Charlie Christian style of magnets, the stuff that has such a magentic pull that it starts pulling at your tooth fillings if you play it too long. :evil4:

Someone above mentioned seeing what was under the hood of an original Marauder and commented on the pickups being big...any photos? :icon_scratch:

This stealthing idea was one of Leo's brainwaves wasn't it? He got up to some 'mad professor' styled ideas in the mid 60s once he only became a Senior Consultant!

 

[phred]

Kramer did this with their Classic Strat. Here is a link. http://www.vintagekramer.com/company47.htm

Scott

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

Kramer did this with their Classic Strat. Here is a link. http://www.vintagekramer.com/company47.htm

Scott

That's not really the same thing.  It's a dummy coil used purely for humcancellation.  The pickup sounds you hear are still generated by the pickups you see mounted in the pickguard.

 

[OzziePete]

Kramer did this with their Classic Strat. Here is a link. http://www.vintagekramer.com/company47.htm

Scott

That's not really the same thing.  It's a dummy coil used purely for humcancellation.  The pickup sounds you hear are still generated by the pickups you see mounted in the pickguard.

Alembic also did the dummy coil hum cancelling thing too.

 

[Firebird211]

it's not so much about the "strength" of the field, as it is about the "range" of it. (although, strength probably helps). I'm just curious if there is anyone here with sufficient scientific knowledge to identify the factors that determine a pickup's range.

Sorry I didn't check this out sooner.  I'm no rocket scientist, but I have engineering knowledge.  The range of the pickup would be most determined by the strength and flux pattern of the magnets used.  The flux pattern is the invisible force emanating from the magnetic poles where as a string vibrates or moves in front of it, cut's the flux lines and in turn the coil wrapped around the pole generates a current.  An electric motor or generator resembles this by:  Motor- current in causes motion out. Generator- motion in causes current out.  Where there's current and resistance, there is a voltage.

Hidden under wood or a pickguard, the magnets will see the same amount of string vibration as if the other material wasn't there, like playing with two magnets under a wood table. The only thing it can see is the strings vibrating, so the output of the pickup(s) would sound the same as if it were dropped down that far on a normal "open" guitar.  As far as the "range" goes it doesn't matter too much, other than the preference of how low they go.  I don't think you could get them so low in a guitar that they would be out of range, but I know that you can get them too close to your strings and defeat the quality of them.  You would have to clear a few inches to get out of range, and I think you won't want a guitar that thick. :laughing7: The coil windings would have more emphasis on the output level as they are what's pushing the sound out.  The pole-type would be taken into consideration too, whether it has seperate poles or rails.  From what I understand of that the rails are more flux-focused, and seperate poles have six, or whatever, magnetic flux patterns emanating from them.

I would say if you wanted just one stealth pickup among visible pickups, you would want the stealth pickup to be quite "hot" in comparison, so the output level is somewhat the same on all pickups.

 

[B3Guy]

I need to get a grant to fund some scientific testing of all this junk  :sad1: THat's the problem with most guitar stuff, you'd have to be filthy rich to test everything out.

 

[Firebird211]

I need to get a grant to fund some scientific testing of all this junk  :sad1: THat's the problem with most guitar stuff, you'd have to be filthy rich to test everything out.

Yeah, it's too bad with most pickups that I have aquired it's never "try it before you buy it", it actually works out just the opposite.  It would be cool to work for Seymour Duncan for a day to see how they develop their products.

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

Fender used to do it, but quit doing it.  There has to be a reason.  It's no secret Leo was an engineer, so the fact that his engineering side even let him do it in the first place says something about it's functionality.  But why no longer?

But as with many Fender choices, he was a cheapo in the beginning.  I almost have to wonder if cutting a pickguard was too labor intensive in his eyes.  Who knows?

 

[Firebird211]

It's funny, but I contemplated almost a year ago, hiding my dime-bucker underneath the pickguard of my new build. I didn't know it had been done before until I read this thread.  After kicking it around I decided I didn't have enough room in my guitar, or even apply activating the pickup without making the controls more over-complicated than they already were.  It would be cool to make your guitar a "sleeper" in some cases, where you have all single coils, or whatever, then activate a scortching humbucker out of nowhere.  I think the only one who would really appreciate and notice what is going on would be the guy playing the guitar, and not the people listening unless they have some guitar knowlege.  I don't know how those guitars that Fender made sound, but from all the physics of it's design Leo possibly stopped making them because they were not responsive enough, or they were not selling good enough. :dontknow: