Scalloping a Neck

[Heft]

I'm considering getting my Warmoth neck scalloped from the 15'th fret and up by a third party. Will this be an issue When I need to get the frets crowned (IE fret radius)?
Thanks.

 

[Rick]

Do you have any pics of any of your other guitars with this?  I never thought of doing this, what's the advantage?

 

[Heft]

This will be my first guitar with this. It comes on Ibanez Jems sometimes on the last 4 frets. The idea is its easier to fret the really fine high frets. I have a 24 and 3/4 gibson conversion neck (Ibanez necks are a bit longer and have bigger frets) and I'd like to go a bit further than the last 4 frets.
One place that offers it is DC Custom http://www.dccustomguitars.com/scalloping.htm.

 

[PhilHill]

Do you have any pics of any of your other guitars with this?  I never thought of doing this, what's the advantage?

The original idea behind scalloping was to allow the player to bend notes downward in addition to across the board. It allowed for some unique tonal effects but it takes fairly good technique to play properly.

 

[Cagey]

I'm considering getting my Warmoth neck scalloped from the 15'th fret and up by a third party. Will this be an issue When I need to get the frets crowned (IE fret radius)?

I recently did a customer's neck that way, and it wasn't an issue for me. Level/crown/dress/polish. Doesn't really change anything for those operations.

 

[stratamania]

Do you have any pics of any of your other guitars with this?  I never thought of doing this, what's the advantage?

The original idea behind scalloping was to allow the player to bend notes downward in addition to across the board. It allowed for some unique tonal effects but it takes fairly good technique to play properly.

Well you could do that, but it is not something that is a big feature of scalloped necks or done that often. The most useful thing about a scalloped neck is that your fingers do not feel any wood underneath them especially when bending.  But the idea originally probably comes from nothing to do with bending but on lutes which used scallops and did not in early times have frets. The high parts being where the frets would be.

Oh and I have a number of scalloped necks and the question about fretwork is that it is not an issue as the scallop is between where the frets are.

 

[PhilHill]

But the idea originally probably comes from nothing to do with bending but on lutes which used scallops and did not in early times have frets. The high parts being where the frets would be.

Interesting theory. I'm not sure that one could consider the two forms as the same being that the intended purpose is different. The type of scalloping that the OP refers to was popularized in modern times by John McLaughlin and Yngwei Malmsteen, among others, and done expressly to allow for the variations in pitch that could be achieved. This is where Vai got the inspiration to have Ibanez include it on the JEM.
I have seen references to the instruments that you mention though and you are quite correct in the intended purpose. Some believe that early scalloping was more a matter of looks than function also though. Who knows?

 

[stratamania]

Some people even scallop in between the slots of a nut so of course that is purely for looks. But it is a fact that a lot of early lutes did not have frets.

But where do you get your theory Phil of scallops being there so you could push down to bend notes?

As I said whilst you could do what you suggest it is not an effective way to bend. While bending in a conventional manner because of the scallops it is easier for the fingers to get a better purchase on the string. Further wide vibratos especially of bent notes are able to be executed without the drag of the finger touching the board. This is something that is currently known and not conjecture to people who actually play scalloped necks.

 

[TBurst Std]

I’m the customer Cagey mentioned. I had the same company as you linked partially scallop a neck.  They did a great job

 

[PhilHill]

Some people even scallop in between the slots of a nut so of course that is purely for looks. But it is a fact that a lot of early lutes did not have frets.

But where do you get your theory Phil of scallops being there so you could push down to bend notes?

As I said whilst you could do what you suggest it is not an effective way to bend. While bending in a conventional manner because of the scallops it is easier for the fingers to get a better purchase on the string. Further wide vibratos especially of bent notes are able to be executed without the drag of the finger touching the board. This is something that is currently known and not conjecture to people who actually play scalloped necks.

I see your point about vibrato, however the technique I talked about is not conjecture either. I was alive and actively constructing, reading and researching about guitar at the time when major players in jazz and progressive became interested in experimenting with it. Late 60's to early 70's was when you first started hearing about them discussing it. I remember a couple of articles (I believe in the mid-70's) in Guitar Player magazine alone where they discussed the practice with both McLaughlin and Al DiMeola. Not to mention other publications. There is mention of it on Duncan's site https://www.seymourduncan.com/blog/the-players-room/unleashing-the-mysteries-of-a-scalloped-fingerboard

 

[gingataff]

But the idea originally probably comes from nothing to do with bending but on lutes which used scallops and did not in early times have frets. The high parts being where the frets would be.

Interesting theory. I'm not sure that one could consider the two forms as the same being that the intended purpose is different. The type of scalloping that the OP refers to was popularized in modern times by John McLaughlin and Yngwei Malmsteen, among others, and done expressly to allow for the variations in pitch that could be achieved. This is where Vai got the inspiration to have Ibanez include it on the JEM.
I have seen references to the instruments that you mention though and you are quite correct in the intended purpose. Some believe that early scalloping was more a matter of looks than function also though. Who knows?

100% Vai got the idea idea for scalloped frets from Billy Sheehan who did it to his fender P bass (his "wife") with a screwdriver (not the drink) in order to get more grip when bending. Yngwie has stated in interviews that he also scalloped his necks himself to emulate lutes which he saw in the music store he worked in as youngster. McLaughlin used the scallops on his modified Gibson acoustic in Shakti and later his Gibson 345 to emulate a sitar which has bars but not fretboard, and allows wide bends and vibrato. If you think that you can bend pitch on an Ibanez Jem by pushing down at the 20th fret or above you are mistaken. I have one and the frets are so close together you'd need needle-thin fingers with tons of pressure. It's purely there to allow your fingers to get under the string when set up with a low action (I aim for 1.5mm or so at 24th fret).

 

[PhilHill]

But the idea originally probably comes from nothing to do with bending but on lutes which used scallops and did not in early times have frets. The high parts being where the frets would be.

Interesting theory. I'm not sure that one could consider the two forms as the same being that the intended purpose is different. The type of scalloping that the OP refers to was popularized in modern times by John McLaughlin and Yngwei Malmsteen, among others, and done expressly to allow for the variations in pitch that could be achieved. This is where Vai got the inspiration to have Ibanez include it on the JEM.
I have seen references to the instruments that you mention though and you are quite correct in the intended purpose. Some believe that early scalloping was more a matter of looks than function also though. Who knows?

100% Vai got the idea idea for scalloped frets from Billy Sheehan who did it to his fender P bass (his "wife") with a screwdriver (not the drink) in order to get more grip when bending. Yngwie has stated in interviews that he also scalloped his necks himself to emulate lutes which he saw in the music store he worked in as youngster. McLaughlin used the scallops on his modified Gibson acoustic in Shakti and later his Gibson 345 to emulate a sitar which has bars but not fretboard, and allows wide bends and vibrato. If you think that you can bend pitch on an Ibanez Jem by pushing down at the 20th fret or above you are mistaken. I have one and the frets are so close together you'd need needle-thin fingers with tons of pressure. It's purely there to allow your fingers to get under the string when set up with a low action (I aim for 1.5mm or so at 24th fret).

McLaughlin wanted to emulate the sitar to get dissonate sounds like Indian music has as it is not based on consonate cords, as he was very into eastern music such as Raga's at the time and wanted to start incorporating it into his music. And I find it hard to believe the idea that Yngwei scalloped his fretboard simply for looks.
Steve Vai has given three different reasons for the scallops over the years, he's like Les Paul, his story changes with the interview. Plus, I never said that scallops weren't used for common types of bending, I agreed with that. I don't get my information about matters like this, or the 70's in general, from Google. I was there and lived it.

 

[PhilHill]

To return to the OP's topic, no scalloping shouldn't interfere with fretwork in the future. The only thing I can think of would be that it might make removing or installing frets a little more delicate.

 

[stratamania]

Some people even scallop in between the slots of a nut so of course that is purely for looks. But it is a fact that a lot of early lutes did not have frets.

But where do you get your theory Phil of scallops being there so you could push down to bend notes?

As I said whilst you could do what you suggest it is not an effective way to bend. While bending in a conventional manner because of the scallops it is easier for the fingers to get a better purchase on the string. Further wide vibratos especially of bent notes are able to be executed without the drag of the finger touching the board. This is something that is currently known and not conjecture to people who actually play scalloped necks.

I see your point about vibrato, however the technique I talked about is not conjecture either. I was alive and actively constructing, reading and researching about guitar at the time when major players in jazz and progressive became interested in experimenting with it. Late 60's to early 70's was when you first started hearing about them discussing it. I remember a couple of articles (I believe in the mid-70's) in Guitar Player magazine alone where they discussed the practice with both McLaughlin and Al DiMeola. Not to mention other publications. There is mention of it on Duncan's site https://www.seymourduncan.com/blog/the-players-room/unleashing-the-mysteries-of-a-scalloped-fingerboard

That makes two of us then that were alive and doing similar sorts of things. I have been playing scalloped boards for years and believe me trying to bend by pushing down towards the board alone is inefficient.

 

[Cagey]

To return to the OP's topic, no scalloping shouldn't interfere with fretwork in the future. The only thing I can think of would be that it might make removing or installing frets a little more delicate.

Stainless frets will mitigate that. Rarely, if ever, need replacement.

 

[PhilHill]

Some people even scallop in between the slots of a nut so of course that is purely for looks. But it is a fact that a lot of early lutes did not have frets.

But where do you get your theory Phil of scallops being there so you could push down to bend notes?

As I said whilst you could do what you suggest it is not an effective way to bend. While bending in a conventional manner because of the scallops it is easier for the fingers to get a better purchase on the string. Further wide vibratos especially of bent notes are able to be executed without the drag of the finger touching the board. This is something that is currently known and not conjecture to people who actually play scalloped necks.

I see your point about vibrato, however the technique I talked about is not conjecture either. I was alive and actively constructing, reading and researching about guitar at the time when major players in jazz and progressive became interested in experimenting with it. Late 60's to early 70's was when you first started hearing about them discussing it. I remember a couple of articles (I believe in the mid-70's) in Guitar Player magazine alone where they discussed the practice with both McLaughlin and Al DiMeola. Not to mention other publications. There is mention of it on Duncan's site https://www.seymourduncan.com/blog/the-players-room/unleashing-the-mysteries-of-a-scalloped-fingerboard

That makes two of us then that were alive and doing similar sorts of things. I have been playing scalloped boards for years and believe me trying to bend by pushing down towards the board alone is inefficient.

Whether it's efficient or not is entirely a matter of the reason your doing it. As I stated, McLaughlin did it to achieve a certain sound. Other folks use the scallops to ease their ability to achieve their purpose. McLaughlin is generally considered to have been the first major player to start reviving the practice of scalloping fretboards, and he did it for the reason I stated. But, yes that is not the only reason to do it. Can we just agree that everybody is right in their own way and leave it at that.  :icon_thumright:

 

[PhilHill]

To return to the OP's topic, no scalloping shouldn't interfere with fretwork in the future. The only thing I can think of would be that it might make removing or installing frets a little more delicate.

Stainless frets will mitigate that. Rarely, if ever, need replacement.

You have a point there. :icon_thumright:

 

[Logrinn]

[youtube]https://youtu.be/VnW2g6qbbrA[/youtube]

Here's some notes about the history of scalloped fretboards on Seymour Duncan's webpage.

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

I'm considering getting my Warmoth neck scalloped from the 15'th fret and up by a third party. Will this be an issue When I need to get the frets crowned (IE fret radius)?

I recently did a customer's neck that way, and it wasn't an issue for me. Level/crown/dress/polish. Doesn't really change anything for those operations.

Same here, did my FRG-7620 in my Avatar this way and I had no issues doing the fretwork.

 

[stratamania]

Whether it's efficient or not is entirely a matter of the reason your doing it. As I stated, McLaughlin did it to achieve a certain sound. Other folks use the scallops to ease their ability to achieve their purpose. McLaughlin is generally considered to have been the first major player to start reviving the practice of scalloping fretboards, and he did it for the reason I stated. But, yes that is not the only reason to do it. Can we just agree that everybody is right in their own way and leave it at that.  :icon_thumright:

Well I can agree with that scalloped necks can be used in different ways.

The video Logrinn posted illustrates what you were saying about McLaughlin creating a sitar like effect with some downward pressure.  I can see now what you were referring to. Of course doing a normal bend that way is not going to work but it is an effect.

Ritchie Blackmore was / is a user of scalloped boards also from the early seventies.  That is where my interest in them started.