Removing tung oil and stain

[oldschooldirt]

I originally finished my Korina body Warmoth guitar with a minwax stain, followed by a couple coats of boiled linseed oil, and then about 8 coats of tung oil. A guitar store owner who had built some Warmoth guitars advised me to use the boiled linseed oil. I later learned that this wasn't a good idea.

Currently, I don't like the way the guitar looks and it's surface feels kind of sticky, almost as if the oil and stain has never dried. I applied the aforementioned finish about three years ago.

What would I have to do to strip all the finish off of it so that I can change it's colour? I was thinking of dying it a bright blue. How much effort would it take to change it's colour in terms of working hours.

 

[Cagey]

I recently applied BLO to a Maple neck, and I'm quite sorry I did that. The results are attractive, but the finish is NFG. It's been "drying" for going on 3 weeks now, and it's still gummy/sticky/nasty. Gotta be the worst thing I've ever put on wood, other than dirt.

After much research I find that apparently, it was considered a Good Thing back about 100 years ago, before they invented about 5,319 better finishes. Some guys still use it for restoration work, where they want to be "period authentic", but there's really no other reason to use it. It doesn't seal, it ages badly, it doesn't ever really harden per se, the rags used to apply it may spontaneously combust, on and on.

So, I've got to strip this thing, and the best information I've found is that turpentine is BLO's Kryptonite. I don't have any of that around, because who uses that anymore either? So, I'll probably attack it with whatever other solvents I have handy and see how far I get. If they're not thorough enough, I'll have to buy some turpentine.

Once it's stripped, you have to sand the wood back as well, since BLO penetrates to a certain degree. How far? I don't know. But, it doesn't bode well for follow-up finishing, so I'll have to come up with some kind of barrier coat. Shellac will work, so that's probably the way I'll go. I bought a little can of it for eleventy bajillion dollars a couple weeks ago, anticipating this. Once that's on, I can put just about anything on top of it.

 

[oldschooldirt]

Can you stain or dye over top of shellac. The body is Korina so I still want the grain to show through. I so regret using BLO.

 

[Cagey]

Stain it first, then shellac instead of sealer, then do whatever you want.

On this Korina body guitar I stained it first, then sealed it with regular sealer, then a million coats of clear lacquer.

It's red instead of natural, but you see how that worked. Lacquer goes over shellac just fine, so you can get the same results.

 

[Cagey]

Also, use a solvent-based stain. Something that'll go with denatured alcohol would be good. A water-based stain may blotch over any residual oil.

 

[croquet hoop]

Stain it first, then shellac instead of sealer, then do whatever you want.

Out of curiosity, how do you apply shellac when used as a sealer ? Do you just spray it like regular lacquer ?

Beautiful color on this VIP, by the way, especially on the second picture.

 

[oldschooldirt]

Here is a picture of the finished guitar. I'm not fussy on picking a new colour for it, I just don't like the way it looks. It reminds me of wood paneling that you'd find in the basement of a 1970's home. I'd be open to a really bright and punchy blue, red, orange, green, etc...

Given that it has lots of tung oil on it already and some underlying stain, could I simply shellac it, then re-stain or dye it, followed by further tung oil?

 

[Cagey]

Stain it first, then shellac instead of sealer, then do whatever you want.

Out of curiosity, how do you apply shellac when used as a sealer ? Do you just spray it like regular lacquer ?

You can. Zinsser packages it in a spray can if you'd like. I already bought some brush-on, so I'm thinking I'll thin it with alcohol and do a couple/few coats so I can sand it flat between.

Beautiful color on this VIP, by the way, especially on the second picture.

Thanks. Made it up on the spot. It's mostly red, and some black to get it a little bloody. Not a "standard" color, in other words. Just a pinch of this and dash of that mixed into alcohol and wiped on.

 

[stubhead]

Any regular solvent is going to do about as good a job as can be: denatured alkie, naptha, mineral spirits. However, it has sunk into the wood, and here's where it may get hard. After you have it good and stripped, strip it again, and if anything shows up in the stripper (white rag) strip it again. You're trying to get as much of the oil out as possible. And then I, personally, would hang it somewhere for a week or so, someplace semi-outside like a garage would be good.

So far, this is really stinky but pretty cheap, and not really too time-consuming as long as you don't counting "waiting for crap to dissolve" as on the clock. My biggest worry would be a little pocket of oil re-mobilized by the stripping, but hiding until the stain/sealer coats, hence the week in between. 

And I think you're stuck with oil=based products here from now on. If there's any tiny residual de-gassing to occur, it'd "blush" under a water-based layer of something, or - even worse!  However, anything in the "brown", "amber" family of dyes will look good (thinned again with naptha or something) and then hit it with a real sealer, wax-free shellac, Zinsser Bullseye comes to mind:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Zinsser-Bulls-Eye-1-Qt-Amber-Shellac-Traditional-Finish-and-Sealer-00704H/100126411#.UVh5nTdc1Mg

I might even stop there and let it play music for a year or two before I did anything else. It'll take anything in the oil-based family, but if any lingering oil zoolches your shellac, it's no big deal to scrape 'er off and re-coat, whereas if you got all emotional about "nitro" or something the oil could traumatize you forever.

I'm pretty sure what tonar meant was to just moisten a burnished neck - not soak 'er. :laughing3:

 

[bagman67]

So, I've got to strip this thing, and the best information I've found is that turpentine is BLO's Kryptonite. I don't have any of that around, because who uses that anymore either? So, I'll probably attack it with whatever other solvents I have handy and see how far I get. If they're not thorough enough, I'll have to buy some turpentine.

This makes sense to me, since linseed oil is the vehicle many fine artists use for painting,and have done so for centuries.  Before the advent of petroleum distillates and modern organic chemistry, it was pretty much the best tool for the job, and turpentine was the solvent of choice.  The good news is you can get turpentine in any art supply shop or from any of the gajillion online dealers.  You might as well start with that known quantity, rather than work your way through a bunch of options that may very well not work at all.

 

[Cagey]

It reminds me of wood paneling that you'd find in the basement of a 1970's home. I'd be open to a really bright and punchy blue, red, orange, green, etc...

Hehe! Good description. I'm old enough to have lived through most of those "modernizations", so I know just what you mean.

Given that it has lots of tung oil on it already and some underlying stain, could I simply shellac it, then re-stain or dye it, followed by further tung oil?

I could be wrong, but I'm afraid that poor body's staining days are over, unless you want to go black. You've already got it so dark the Korina's natural variegation is gone, and any color you put over it is going to be heavily influenced by the underlying poo. Plus, the grain was never filled, so the stain and oil is deep in the wood now. No getting it out, you have to shield against it.

Your best bet is to just shellac it for a barrier, then shoot it to death with clear lacquer, sanding lightly between coats, then buff it out. It'll come out looking much the same, but shinier, and not sticky.

Or, just get another body to swap into place of this one, and put this one in the closet against the day when you come across a decent neck at a can't-pass-up-price and build an oddball you wouldn't play very often, like a slide guitar, a baritone, or something strung/tuned funny like a Nashville setup.

 

[oldschooldirt]

Thanks for all the input. It certainly sounds like a lot of work. Given that I have two small kids, I think I have to make a decision; do I want to spend my very limited free time making a nice looking guitar, or do I want to become a better guitar player. I think I'll go for the second option. If I had my time back I would have done it right the first time. Hopefully, I'll get so good at guitar that I'll form a band and need to build a second guitar, which I'll do up all nice and pretty.

I named this guitar Axis II Histrionic, as it has given me nothing but trouble. That said, it was my first build and plays exactly how I like. It feels and sounds great. It was just a real pain to get the tremolo set right and the colour didn't turn out nice. I think I'll just have to get used to the way it looks.

Thanks for all your help.  :guitaristgif:

Histrionic Personality Disorder: The DSM-IV criteria define histrionic personality disorder as "as a pervasive pattern of excessive emotionality and attention seeking, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts." In addition, an individual must have five or more of the following signs or symptoms:

    Discomfort in situations in which he or she is not the center of attention

    Interaction with others that is often characterized by inappropriate sexually seductive or provocative behavior

    Rapidly shifting and shallow expression of emotion

    Consistently uses physical appearance to draw attention to self

    Style of speech that is excessively impressionistic and lacking in detail

    Shows self-dramatization, theatricality, and exaggerated expression of emotion

    Is suggestible (easily influenced by others or circumstances)

    Considers relationships to be more intimate than they actually are

 

[Cagey]

I'm pretty sure what tonar meant was to just moisten a burnished neck - not soak 'er. :laughing3:

No doubt. But, all I did was wipe on enough to see that it got coated, not that it looked particularly wet. Then, 20-30 minutes later give it a wipe down, to make sure there wasn't any excess on there. I let it sit at least 36 hours between coats. Maybe more than one coat was the mistake. I don't know. What I do know is I'm done with oil. These are guitars I'm building, not paintings of my sainted, long-suffering martyr mother. They're going to be handled, banged around, played, subjected to environmental hardships, etc. so a soft finish is the Wrong Thing.

 

[Cagey]

...turpentine was the solvent of choice.  The good news is you can get turpentine in any art supply shop or from any of the gajillion online dealers.  You might as well start with that known quantity, rather than work your way through a bunch of options that may very well not work at all.

Yeah, no sense messing around. Life's too short, and I'm already eating it up with this needlessly complicated detail.

 

[Cagey]

Histrionic Personality Disorder: The DSM-IV criteria define histrionic personality disorder as "as a pervasive pattern of excessive emotionality and attention seeking, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts." In addition, an individual must have five or more of the following signs or symptoms:

    Discomfort in situations in which he or she is not the center of attention

    Interaction with others that is often characterized by inappropriate sexually seductive or provocative behavior

    Rapidly shifting and shallow expression of emotion

    Consistently uses physical appearance to draw attention to self

    Style of speech that is excessively impressionistic and lacking in detail

    Shows self-dramatization, theatricality, and exaggerated expression of emotion

    Is suggestible (easily influenced by others or circumstances)

    Considers relationships to be more intimate than they actually are

Sounds like you should have named it "Brittney Spears" <grin>

 

[stubhead]

I was a psych major in college (no surprise!) and I keep up on the reading - my real interest was in what's now called evolutionary psychologist or biological psych... all pertaining to the actual structural brain-meat that rules us meat puppets. Having said that, some of these newer DSM-IV "disorders" strike me as nothing more than the creation, by psychiatrists, of new "problems" which can of course, only be treated by psychiatrists. Good lord, these hordes of "grief counselors" who descend like vultures upon every scene of death...

"No I AM NOT in denial!"

"Ah-hah! Zeez proofz ze patient iss in denial!"....

Discomfort in situations in which he or she is not the center of attention

    Interaction with others that is often characterized by inappropriate sexually seductive or provocative behavior

    Rapidly shifting and shallow expression of emotion

    Consistently uses physical appearance to draw attention to self

    Style of speech that is excessively impressionistic and lacking in detail

    Shows self-dramatization, theatricality, and exaggerated expression of emotion

    Is suggestible (easily influenced by others or circumstances)

    Considers relationships to be more intimate than they actually are

There's only, like, seventy million people in the US who now need a psychiatrist - couple this with "Restless Leg Syndrome" and "Social Anxiety Disorder" you'll be in treatment for the rest of your life. Or is it excessively impressionistic for me to say so...

 

[Cagey]

Isn't DSM V coming up? Thought I read something recently where they were trying to cull some of the more esoteric (read: imaginary) disorders out of the DSM, or at least combine them with other things to add mass.  For instance, I think the Autism definition got pared down to where only 84% of the population suffers from it.

 

[oldschooldirt]

I work as a mental health social worker with youth. I live in Canada so I imagine that our system is a little different than the US, as we have a public health care system, although there is a large private component with mental health services up here also. I would agree with you that the mental health system is an industry like any other in that more customers/patients means more business and subsequent money. Therefore, the more people who can be diagnosed as mentally ill equates to more lucrative gains for those who provide mental health services.

As for the DSM-V, I hear that they are going to take Narcissistic Personality Disorder out of it, as narcissism appears to be such a common characteristic in today's society, no doubt one that generates a lot of income for the entertainment and beauty industries.

Back to my guitar. What if I used turpentine to take off as much of the tung oil and oil-based stain as I could, then I re-stained it with a combination of tung oil and the following color tone liquid stain? 

What I've learned from this forum is that oil products can't be mixed with water products and that oil soaks into the wood unless you apply a sealer first. Is this correct?

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Finishing_supplies/Colors,_tints,_and_stains/ColorTone_Liquid_Stains.html

 

[pabloman]

So are you an actual social worker where you are the case worker? Presently I supervise an emancipation home here in Colorado for youth. I also do tracking for the Department of Youth Corrections.

 

[Cagey]

Back to my guitar. What if I used turpentine to take off as much of the tung oil and oil-based stain as I could, then I re-stained it with a combination of tung oil and the following color tone liquid stain?

Sounds like a plan. I'm not sanguine about turpentine taking off much of that stain, though. Be prepared to do a lot of sanding if you expect to change the color much.

What I've learned from this forum is that oil products can't be mixed with water products and that oil soaks into the wood unless you apply a sealer first. Is this correct?

It's true; oil and water don't mix. But, that needs to be qualified a bit. Water is a vehicle, so once it burns off it's not an issue. For instance, you can use water-based stains under just about anything. But, if you try to put it over something, it shouldn't be something that repels water, such as oil.