Refret Question

[stratamania]

For flush cutting I have something from Knipex that looks like an Ear Clamp plier

https://www.knipex.com/index.php?id=1216&L=1&page=group_detail&parentID=1369&groupID=2439

The difference is mine was ground to be a little flusher.

 

[Cagey]

I have a similar thing from Summit, but it's a lotta work on stainless and is already showing wear.

 

[davegardner0]

Lots of good info here on fret cutters, THANK YOU for that!

I went ahead and emailed Jescar, Stew-Mac, and Philadelphia Luthier Supply (where I bought the frets) with the same fret cutter question. The responses varied wildly... Jescar recommended the summit tools that have been mentioned here already. Phila Luthier Supply said "nothing works" and fret nippers are just a wear item when it comes to stainless. And Stew Mac was the most optimistic, saying that they recommend their fret nippers and they should just work fine.

I tried out the Stew-Mac cutters since I already have them. To be honest it wasn't too bad... Definitely needed my safety glasses as there were a lot of flying fret ends!
I can't see wear on the jaws but this was just one neck. I guess we'll see as I do more necks, but for my needs so far they were okay.

Oh and recrowning after leveling was just miserable with stainless frets. I keep telling myself "it's worth it, it's worth it..."  :laughing3:

 

[AirCap]

Stainless is tough material. My night job for decades was a tool & die maker in the aircraft industry, and I machined a couple boatloads of the stuff. You can't pussyfoot around stainless - try to take it easy, and it will work harden. Using a file on it makes a horrible screaming sound. It's no fun to deburr. But when the part is finished to size, and polished up - it sure is NICE.

 

[swarfrat]

Is it not easier to cut to precise length before installing? I've never done it before but ... it sure seems like a highly desirable goal.

 

[davegardner0]

Is it not easier to cut to precise length before installing? I've never done it before but ... it sure seems like a highly desirable goal.

I definitely think that would be better. BUT I read online that SS frets need to be the precise radius of the FB and than it's really hard to bend by hand. I don't have one of those crank fret benders, so I bought pre-radiused fretwire. I could only find it also pre-cut:
https://www.philadelphialuthiertools.com/fretwire/jescar-stainless-steel-fretwire-fw57110-s-electric-jumbo-pre-radiused/

 

[Cagey]

Very few necks have no (width) taper to them, so each fret has to be a different length. On necks with a progressive radius, they also all have a slightly different curve. You want them all to extend as far to the edge as possible without falling off, which means flush. You can probably imagine the amount of time that would take to get each fret right. So, best way to do it is to exceed the edge and grind back to it. Can't miss that way.

 

[swarfrat]

Sure - if you're building them for someone. But for those of us doing one neck every 5 years - it seems a worthwhile tradeoff to trade a few minutes of measuring and a spreadsheet for vastly easier trimming / tools.

 

[davegardner0]

Sure - if you're building them for someone. But for those of us doing one neck every 5 years - it seems a worthwhile tradeoff to trade a few minutes of measuring and a spreadsheet for vastly easier trimming / tools.

Even if you're cutting them before installing into the neck, you still have to cut them, right?

 

[swarfrat]

Yes, but the whole problem of the tool which works well but doesn't cut them flush goes away then.

 

[Cagey]

Plus, the cut is rarely clean. There's always some amount of distortion that you want to get rid of.

I can certainly understand wanting to avoid collecting a large number of specialized tools - they're expensive. Particularly if they're not something you're going to use very often. But, if that's the case, don't buy any tools. Get the work done. Chances are if you're doing the work so rarely that you don't want to invest in the tools, then it's likely you're not going to do as good a job as someone who does it all the time.

Imagine if you only played a certain complex tune once every five years. How good are you going to be at it?

 

[davegardner0]

Yes, but the whole problem of the tool which works well but doesn't cut them flush goes away then.

Gotcha, makes sense.

 

[davegardner0]

Follow-up question for you guys... I've noticed that after crowning my frets (and also on the previous level+crown jobs I've done) I usually end up with a profile like the attached image after using the fret crowning file. It persists after sanding too. Yes there's a rounded surface on the top of the fret and it's functional. But the radius doesn't match the fret and I get a relatively hard edge where the two radii intersect. It doesn't really look great.

Not sure if it's my technique or my crowning file maybe? I've been using one of the basic stew-mac wide crowning files, (bought it years ago, it says "wide/medium", I don't think they sell this specific one any more).
Although at this point I think it's getting dull and beginning to skate across the frets occasionally so I'll be looking for another (different?) crowning file for next time.

 

[AirCap]

3 corner fret rounding file, and correct technique will cure that problem....

 

[Cagey]

I don't know if that's an exaggerated illustration, but it looks like it's on its 3rd or 4th leveling, or was too aggressively leveled to start with. With crowning files that have the crown shape built into them, there are limits to the width/height ratio they can effectively deal with. If it's too wide, the sides of the file can't get low enough to cut the entire arc, so you'd end up with a flat-ish top like you see there. At that point, you either do the tri-corner file thing as Aircap suggests, or refret it.

 

[davegardner0]

OK that's what I was afraid of.

The illustration is definitely exaggerated but not by a huge amount. The problem is, I'm fighting against too-wide fret slots in this project. That's the way I got this guitar originally...all of the fret ends were coming up so it was super cheap. I took the old frets out once and glued them back in with a radius block as a clamping caul, but then they were far too low to play well as I think somebody had leveled them while they were popped up.

So in my current refret I again glued the frets in (using fish glue and the clamping caul). Then I used thin super glue on a few offenders that were still a little loose. They seem really solidly in there but they weren't all at the exact same height so I had to do a good deal of leveling. I'm still at about 0.05-0.055" fret height though so it's not THAT bad.

When you use the concave fret crowning file, do you always keep it perfectly upright on the fret, or do you tilt it in either direction some as you're filing? I'm wondering if that would cure this issue.

 

[Cagey]

If the concavity of the file is deeper than the fret is tall, trying to turn it so you can get some side filing action will only result in the file getting lifted. Won't do what you're looking to do. What you need, if you want to use those frets, is one of those tri-corner files like this...

They're a little trickier to use than the files with the concave channels, but it's how that sort of work has traditionally been done.

 

[davegardner0]

I've used the triangle files before, it was kind of hard but seemed do-able. So I think I'll give it a try. Luckily since the last time I tried it, I got a belt sander. So I can round over the edges better this time.

I'm wondering if this is one instance where stainless might be a little easier though? I remember with nickel frets one slip over the top of the fret with the triangular file meant that fret had a low spot. Maybe they won't cut as fast with these harder frets. I'm looking for the bright side here, hah!!

 

[Cagey]

Those files, at least the ones from StewMac, already have "safe" corners on them.

I've always thought stainless was a little easier, at least from the standpoint of self-induced damage. I know I have to be very conscious of the fact I'm working nickel/silver on the rare occasion I do, or I'll go too far. What takes 10 swipes of the file on stainless might only take one or two with the soft stuff, and you can't put metal back.

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

I've made my own "safe" corners on triangle files by using crowning files meant for stainless fretwire on the corners.  Makes my lil Harbor Freight files perform like Stew Mac files for a fraction of the $.