Questions About A Guthrie Govan-Style Build

[HALENisking]

https://youtu.be/Iv753X9q_x0
And I don't know if it's his pickup, capacitor, or both, but @3:13 he has the most incredible rolled off tone knob sounds I've ever heard in my life. Dayum!

 

[bagman67]

Criminy, that guy can play.

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

Between his siggy and the Phil Collen, I think these are the nicest superstrats on the market.

 

[MikeW]

Criminy, that guy can play.

I've seen the Aristocrats three or four times now and every time I leave I'm just...
:doh:

How he thinks about the instrument is a complete mystery to me. It's amazing and inspiring and disheartening all at the same time.

 

[MikeW]

.... Anyways, I agree Cagey, I just don't find a locking tremolo necessary for me, and am looking forward to avoiding the heartache of them.  ...

...  VS100...

Decision made. I know the GG has a bone nut, but between the VS100, the LSR roller nut, and good locking tuners, you'll never go wrong and can dive bomb all day without tuning issues at all.

... I was hoping to get a response with someone with hands on experience! I'm honestly super surprised that his neck profile is that slim. Just because he is so darn toneful, and has pretty big hands. I will personally shoot for the Standard Thin.  ...

Yep! Go with a 24-fret extension on a Standard Thin, Roasted Flame Maple neck with stainless steel frets and you'll be there. Great choice IMHO.

... I'm thinking I might honestly just throw another EVH Frankenstein in the bridge. That pickup should be the universal definition of "growly but open sounding" (at least in my book)   ...

The Frankenstein will definitely be open but might have a bit more 'grit' to it than the GG has. Either way I think that's a good choice too. Now, the question really is, can you find them in that brownish-purpleish-grayish color that the GG has.
:toothy11:

 

[musicispeace]

Criminy, that guy can play.

I've seen the Aristocrats three or four times now and every time I leave I'm just...
:doh:

How he thinks about the instrument is a complete mystery to me. It's amazing and inspiring and disheartening all at the same time.

GG definitely is one of those players. I get the same cluster of feelings when I hear Johnny Hiland....a combination of being really inspired and sick in the stomach at the same time.  :laughing7:

 

[HALENisking]

Criminy, that guy can play.

I've seen the Aristocrats three or four times now and every time I leave I'm just...
:doh:

How he thinks about the instrument is a complete mystery to me. It's amazing and inspiring and disheartening all at the same time.

We're on the same brainwave about all of this dude! Saw the aristocrats live, got there a couple hours early just so I could grab a spot in the front. It was so packed I ended up standing literally a foot and a half from Guthrie the whole time, directly facing him. Pure inspiration man. Plus I just sort of hung out before the show with Marco and Bryan playing ping pong beside me :laughing11: For all of Guthrie's flash and technicality, his music and playing seems just so honest and solidly musical. Love it.

I'm leaning towards the Hipshot Contour trem right now... Thinking the earvana cut corian nut, and a bit of chapstick- that setup for the nut hasn't done me wrong yet lol.

What your opinion on recessing the bridge people? I've looked at the facts and am still unsure. This will be my third Warmoth build. I've learned a lot about my preferences from the last two, and I really want to knock this one out of the park. I'm really stuck between the perceived higher tension of the strings with floating trems (though it seemed worse on my floyd equipped guitar than my non locking trems), and the fact that I love to be able to pull up at least a minor 3rd.

 

[HALENisking]

And gosh dang it- I love the brown bobbins with the satin red baseplate  :-\ but I don't think I'll be dishing out the additional money for custom colors. Maybe if I end up getting the pups handwound...

 

[MikeW]

What your opinion on recessing the bridge people? I've looked at the facts and am still unsure. This will be my third Warmoth build. I've learned a lot about my preferences from the last two, and I really want to knock this one out of the park. I'm really stuck between the perceived higher tension of the strings with floating trems (though it seemed worse on my floyd equipped guitar than my non locking trems), and the fact that I love to be able to pull up at least a minor 3rd.

Good question. I debated this quite a bit as well and what it really came down to for me was the question of how far I 'needed' to go and still be 'musical'. I wound up not recessing for the last three I've built (VS100 bridges on all three) and don't regret it. I get enough range, up and down, that it's not an issue for me.

I don't have any experience with the Hipshot Contour, but it looks similar in setup to the VS100 so I suspect you could get the same kind of range out of it if you set it up right. Of course YMMV and the only way to really be sure that you're going to get the range you're looking for is to go with a recess.

 

[Cagey]

I've installed a lot of VS100s and other vibrato bridges, and have never heard a difference between recessed or not.

If you want a wider range, you can recess it so the bridge's rear end has somewhere to go when you pull up, but then you also have to route out the cavity the "sustain block" pivots in or the block will hit the forward cavity wall. You may also have to lower the floor of the neck pocket to account for the lower bridge height.

As for feel, recessing it can't really make a difference in the string tension. If the strings are pulling 120lbs of tension on the bridge, the counterbalance springs have to have a gross pull of 120lbs (counting mechanical advantage) as well, or the bridge won't float. Some bridges will feel lighter or heavier in pull, but that has to do with bridge design and how much leverage it provides. That's not changeable without going to a different bridge. That's often difficult because of mounting post location.

 

[HALENisking]

Good question. I debated this quite a bit as well and what it really came down to for me was the question of how far I 'needed' to go and still be 'musical'. I wound up not recessing for the last three I've built (VS100 bridges on all three) and don't regret it. I get enough range, up and down, that it's not an issue for me.

I don't have any experience with the Hipshot Contour, but it looks similar in setup to the VS100 so I suspect you could get the same kind of range out of it if you set it up right. Of course YMMV and the only way to really be sure that you're going to get the range you're looking for is to go with a recess.

Am I to understand that you set the bridge forward to float a little then? Thanks for sharing the experience with me, it helps me out a ton!

I've installed a lot of VS100s and other vibrato bridges, and have never heard a difference between recessed or not.

If you want a wider range, you can recess it so the bridge's rear end has somewhere to go when you pull up, but then you also have to route out the cavity the "sustain block" pivots in or the block will hit the forward cavity wall. You may also have to lower the floor of the neck pocket to account for the lower bridge height.

As for feel, recessing it can't really make a difference in the string tension. If the strings are pulling 120lbs of tension on the bridge, the counterbalance springs have to have a gross pull of 120lbs (counting mechanical advantage) as well, or the bridge won't float. Some bridges will feel lighter or heavier in pull, but that has to do with bridge design and how much leverage it provides. That's not changeable without going to a different bridge. That's often difficult because of mounting post location.

Thanks Cagey. I guess just the sensation of unison bends can be... disconcerting on a floating trem. It's an odd feeling on the surrounding strings as the bridge springs pull back. I guess, from what you wrote, the recessed floyd feels more extreme in this aspect because of its increased mass, vs the six screw bladerunner set to float? Sorry if that's way off mark, but I appreciate you sharing the knowledge  
Makes me want to consider a tremsetter of some sort haha.

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

The Govan model has a Tremol-No installed as OEM.

If you have it locked in hard tail mode, flattening of the drone note when bending up the next string are not a problem.

Unless you use a Ibanez ZRT, Tremsetter or a Mag Lok, this will always be an issue on a fully floating trem.

 

[Cagey]

Thanks Cagey. I guess just the sensation of unison bends can be... disconcerting on a floating trem. It's an odd feeling on the surrounding strings as the bridge springs pull back. I guess, from what you wrote, the recessed floyd feels more extreme in this aspect because of its increased mass, vs the six screw bladerunner set to float? Sorry if that's way off mark, but I appreciate you sharing the knowledge  
Makes me want to consider a tremsetter of some sort haha.

If you can feel the strings moving vs. not moving on a floating bridge in the case of a unison bend, I suspect that's your imagination. All the strings move if the bridge moves, regardless of most current bridge designs. In fact, some guys use that as an argument to not have a floating bridge as the strings you're not bending will flat out as you bend the ones you are. The only way around it is to either have the counterbalance strings pulled very tight so flatting strings (diving) takes malice aforethought with the wang bar, or do as TFS said and install/engage one of the various trem locking devices to prevent the bridge from moving.

 

[MikeW]

Good question. I debated this quite a bit as well and what it really came down to for me was the question of how far I 'needed' to go and still be 'musical'. I wound up not recessing for the last three I've built (VS100 bridges on all three) and don't regret it. I get enough range, up and down, that it's not an issue for me.

I don't have any experience with the Hipshot Contour, but it looks similar in setup to the VS100 so I suspect you could get the same kind of range out of it if you set it up right. Of course YMMV and the only way to really be sure that you're going to get the range you're looking for is to go with a recess.

Am I to understand that you set the bridge forward to float a little then? Thanks for sharing the experience with me, it helps me out a ton!

No. The bridge is located exactly where it should be. I just have the Big W rout for the VS100 as usual. The trick is in the setup. Here's the idea behind it.

Are you using a Wilkinson bridge? If so, here's a simple trick to get the radius on the bridge right.

Start with the outer saddles (1 and 6) flat on the baseplate and raise or lower the two post screws until the 1 and 6 strings are just resting on the last fret. Raise/lower the center saddles until the center strings are just resting on the last fret as well. (You'll know when you're there if when you raise either of the adjustment screws, the string lifts from the fret.) Once you've got the strings set there, then raise the entire bridge by the post screws to the height you want. Voila!

I suppose this will work for any bridge with adjustment screws that will raise the height, now that I think about it. And yeah, this also assumes that the nut is the correct radius at the other end too. I have an LSR roller nut on the Strat I did this with and it worked like a charm, but YMMV.

As you and Cagey note though, this setup will suffer from the problem of flatting the notes that are being bent in unison bends since the bridge is floating and will move as you push the strings.

 

[HALENisking]

Many thanks for setting me straight MikeW and Cagey! Getting nearer and nearer to the final design!