Question about frets, Pleking etc.

[WindsurfMaui]

I was watching Youtube videos about getting guitars plek'd. I'm not sure I quite understand what the machine does so let me lay out what I think and please correct where I am wrong. The machine measures the various measurements while the neck is stringed and under pressure.  It then analyzes what has to be adjusted, truss rod, nut, frets and then does what it can ad leaves the rest for the tech.

My question is about the fret leveling. The normal way to level frets is to have the neck straight and level all the frets to the same height. While the Plek machine measures the neck under pressure and then levels the frets at different heights depending on the neck arc so there is no fret buzz. Is this correct?  Wouldn't a guitar plek'd then have a problem if the player decided to change the string height,  or neck relief?

Personally I like the neck to be as straight as possible. And then I could use the saddles to adjust string height. But the problem is I can't adjust the string height at the nut without making some permanent changes to the nut. So is there a nut that can be adjusted for height, up and down, easily? Is a nut that does this a good idea? Thanks

 

[Cagey]

Plek machines are capable of some high-resolution measurements, so they don't rely on a physical standard as a reference; everything is relative. It works out because it has constant feedback about what it's doing without measuring after the fact. It picks a datum point, and works from there, much like a CNC machine uses an "index" location. If you know your origin, and your movements are very precise, everything can be relative to the origin and end up perfect.

The only nuts I'm aware of that have height adjustment are the LSR and Floyd Rose types, and that's just because they're screwed/bolted in and rely on shims to set their height. I think Gibson or somebody came out with a dynamically adjustable nut, but you don't hear too much about it so I'm not sure if it works well or not.

In my experience, it's not nut slot height that has to change when changing string gauges, it's width. Also, with older truss rod designs, you may need to change relief due to differences in string tension as they may bend the neck forward more or allow it to relax. You only want as much relief as the strings need to vibrate to full travel without hitting the frets, lest you end up with strings that are too far off or too close to fretboard  to be able to play comfortably and/or without noise. That usually necessitates a bridge or saddle height change as well.

 

[Logrinn]

ABM makes height adjustable nuts:

 

[AirCap]

NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING can beat an experienced craftsman.

 

[WindsurfMaui]

Logrinn thanks for the link.

Cagey, my thinking was if I have a fairly straight neck and I want to change from a low set up to a higher set up, for whatever reason, I could just crank up both the bridge and nut equally so that the neck itself remains straight and no fret work has to be redone. When I just change the bridge height  I can get a lower action down by the bridge but not at the first few frets. I thought an adjustable nut would make a low or high action uniform along the neck.

Personally I don't like the look of a locking nut  but a locking nut that raised the nut floor by slipping in various premade shims would be complicated but would allow me to keep the string height uniform. But I'm just brain storming here to see if something like this already exists. You are right that changing the height at the nut probably doesn't effect playing all that much.

But do I understand the Plek'd machine properly? That when pleking the neck the frets are not cut at an equal  height along the whole neck but rather cuts various frets at different heights according to the bend in the neck and a change to the neck bend might cause the frets to be the wrong height and require a second plekking?

 

[Cagey]

There's probably more than one way to use the machine, but the way I've seen it done the measurements are made while the instrument is strung up. It's basically checking string clearance to the fret top at each fret, and developing a table of heights based on that. Once that's done, it has a profile it uses to decide how much to cut each fret. So, yes, frets may be cut to different heights, but that would be relative to the fretboard, not the strings. So adjusting relief shouldn't change anything.

That's sorta the way I do it, too, but not with strings. I use a straightedge and the truss rod to get the neck as flat as possible going by fret height, then either spot level or overall level to get all the fret tops on the same plane. Many guys use a notched straightedge to get the 'board straight, then level all the frets to match that. End results are the same, but the amount of fret material removed can be greater in the latter method. To my way of thinking, you don't play the fretboard, you play the frets, so I don't care if the fretboard is level. I just want all the fret tops in the same plane.

 

[stratamania]

There are two types of Plek machines, those used for original manufacturing (Plek Pro) and those used for shops doing maintenance (Plek Station).

Both are precision measuring and cutting tools and the best results will be down to an experienced operator.

Aircap said...

NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING can beat an experienced craftsman.

This is a true statement regardless of the tools employed. Perhaps if Aircap had a Plek station and applied his experience along with using it you would get really good results.  Even with a Plek the results will be down to the operator.

As Cagey, also mentioned the methods employed to arrive with level frets will vary but the end goal is the same level frets. And not all will be of an exactly equal height unless we live in a perfect world that accounts for little or no variation.

Now for Nuts...

There is a Gibson nut that is adjustable. Sometimes called a Gibson zero-fret nut. I have one on my 2015 Les Paul Sprint Run. It works very well there are two little hex screws that enable the adjustment. The nut part was originally brass and later Titanium was used. Mine still has a brass nut but I have the titanium replacement. Graphtech also makes a replacement. Anyway, it works very well for adjustment.

Here is a video of a similar guitar to mine so you can see how the nut works.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mFStdXJb9A
[/youtube]
So a question for WindsurfMaui, how were the great pyramids really built?

 

[Logrinn]

Cagey, my thinking was if I have a fairly straight neck and I want to change from a low set up to a higher set up, for whatever reason, I could just crank up both the bridge and nut equally so that the neck itself remains straight and no fret work has to be redone. When I just change the bridge height  I can get a lower action down by the bridge but not at the first few frets. I thought an adjustable nut would make a low or high action uniform along the neck.

I’ve never heard of anybody that wants high action at the nut. Some players want a low action and that means that the action at the nut is low and the bridge is lowered as far as the player finds it comfortable. Now the lower action you get the higher the probability that you’ll get fretbuzz. You might also get less sustain and ”poorer tone” (because there’s not enough room for the string to vibrate). Some players prefer higher action. This is accomplished by raising the bridge. The action will now be slightly higher at the 12:th fret and even more so at the 21:st, 22nd or 24:th fret. But very little happens at the first fret. A miniscule higher action, but barely noticable. Which is good. Because pressing down at the 22:nd fret is not that much harder even if the action is slightly higher. But raising the height at the nut a similar amount would make pressing down on the first fret very hard, since the angle between string and fretboard at the nut is now much steeper.
When people talk about a neck (fretboard) that’s straight, they’re actually talking about a neck with a slight relief. This relief is needed for the string to vibrate. If you look at the strings in rest they will be completely straight. But when you pluck a string it will vibrate the most in the middle and have a ”curved” profile. For that curve to fit on a neck, the neck needs to ha a curve as well. Ie the relief.
If you pluck really hard, the string will vibrate more (have a bigger amplitude and be louder). But if there’s not room on the fretboard for it to do so the string will fret out. So you have a bigger relief and/or higher action. And you raise the bridge to get higher action. But not the nut. Because the string’s vibration at the nut is zero. It gets stronger the further up and is strongest halfway up the string.
If that makes sense.

 

[Cagey]

Slide players may want higher action at the nut, but that's a whole different discussion.

 

[Logrinn]

Slide players may want higher action at the nut, but that's a whole different discussion.

That’s very true.

 

[stratamania]

Apart from pure slide use if the nut slots are too high not only can it make playing at the lower frets more difficult than it needs to be, you will probably find it very difficult if not impossible to play chords in tune regardless of how well intonated the strings are at the 12 fret.

 

[Logrinn]

Apart from pure slide use if the nut slots are too high not only can it make playing at the lower frets more difficult than it needs to be, you will probably find it very difficult if not impossible to play chords in tune regardless of how well intonated the strings are at the 12 fret.

Also very true. I forgot to mention that.
Just hold down an open G chord. If everything rings true, strum again but now tighten the grip. And voilà - instant dissonance. Same effect

 

[AirCap]

If Aircap had a Plek Station....

My point is.... I can do better work WITHOUT the expensive, overcomplicated chunk of doo-doo, AND do it faster. In the repair business, time is money - and buying a Plek would zero sense.

Plek's were made for people who have no luthiery skills or knowledge - the general public. Plek's were made for button pushers. Yes, I'm sneering when I type that.

I know what I'm talking about. My industrial training was as a tool and die maker - a super machinist. 

 

[AirCap]

I think it would be really nice if someone could figure out why my ACTIONS button doesn't work. Then I could edit and quote without all the monkey motions.

 

[stratamania]

If Aircap had a Plek Station....

My point is.... I can do better work WITHOUT the expensive, overcomplicated chunk of doo-doo, AND do it faster. In the repair business, time is money - and buying a Plek would zero sense.

Plek's were made for people who have no luthiery skills or knowledge - the general public. Plek's were made for button pushers. Yes, I'm sneering when I type that.

I know what I'm talking about. My industrial training was as a tool and die maker - a super machinist.

Sure I know that is what you were getting at. But whether you as a skilled artisan employ traditional tools or something like a Plek my point is it takes a skilled person to get the best out of any tool.

If someone does not know what they are doing the results from a Plek are not guaranteed. But that is the same with hand tools.

Where we diverge I think is that you would not use a Plek doo-hickey, whereas someone like John Suhr does, various other well-known luthiers also.

I had a Plek done in London, by a well-known repair guy who has done work for people like Gary Moore, Clapton, Gilmour, Beck etc. oh and me  :laughing7: he was well known before Pleks existed.

My point is it is a tool which used by a skilled person produces a good result. It is not the end of it though because it does not dress the ends of frets for example. For a lot of people, however, it will take a lot of jobs to pay for such a device. And a good craftsman can certainly produce good results with hand tools.

Personally, I think a mixture of both approaches is probably where the truth lies.

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

There's probably more than one way to use the machine, but the way I've seen it done the measurements are made while the instrument is strung up. It's basically checking string clearance to the fret top at each fret, and developing a table of heights based on that. Once that's done, it has a profile it uses to decide how much to cut each fret. So, yes, frets may be cut to different heights, but that would be relative to the fretboard, not the strings. So adjusting relief shouldn't change anything.

That's sorta the way I do it, too, but not with strings. I use a straightedge and the truss rod to get the neck as flat as possible going by fret height, then either spot level or overall level to get all the fret tops on the same plane. Many guys use a notched straightedge to get the 'board straight, then level all the frets to match that. End results are the same, but the amount of fret material removed can be greater in the latter method. To my way of thinking, you don't play the fretboard, you play the frets, so I don't care if the fretboard is level. I just want all the fret tops in the same plane.

To me, the notched straight edge is most applicable on a brand new neck, but on a neck that has had some significant miles on it, I do it the same way as Cagey. 

 

[WindsurfMaui]

Thanks for all the feedback. I'd like to address it in parts.
First let me say that any guitar I own is better set up than I will ever play it.  But when I'm assembling a guitar, or anything else for that matter, as I'm trying to do a good job I'm also thinking how could this be better.  So that is how my question came to be. And what I understand is anything I can think up has probably been already invented by someone else. So I just want to be aware of it and see if in practice it will work for me. Others may not need or want the doohickey but I may find it helpful. In some cases the doohickey will only make a 1% improvement and is not worth the effort but I still like to be aware of it. So I thank everyone for the information they have provided.

I've watched a number of Plek'd videos and people seem to be very happy with their instruments after they have gone through the process. Stratamania thanks for the Gibson video that is exactly what I was thinking about. Also, do you want to give us the results of the plek done to your instrument? Is it as good as they say? Was there any issue that others couldn't resolve that the Plek analysis did?

Logrinn I don't want a high action. Actually I would like a lower action but I was wondering if the lower action could be uniform across the neck. Like you, and others , have said the height near the nut hasn't been adjustable which means that playing near the nut is more difficult than playing up the neck. So is there a way to overcome this by a nut that is adjustable?

Let me make a point here that I didn't make clearly in my original question. I am using Strat necks exclusively. So because the headstock is straight and not tilted back the nut for a Strat/Tele , etc needs a high nut to create enough angle from the nut to the tuning machine so there is no string buzz. Other guitars with tilt back headstocks may not have this issue. (And maybe I will have to buy Strat necks with tilted back headstocks to eventually solve my issues. I hate string trees and don't want them but don't think even staggered tuning machines  create a good enough angle from the nut.) So I thought that an adjustable nut would allow me to change the nut and saddle height up and down at will depending on how I play the guitar, change my attack of the strings etc playing various styles. And that I wouldn't need to have the frets Plek'd again as I change the relief in the neck or change string sizes, or string height, etc. But maybe what I am hearing here, reading between the lines, is that there is no way to resolve the high nut of a Strat headstock.

In thinking about this issue more maybe the solution for me is to move to a  tilt back neck. This would allow me to have a lower nut and enough angle from the nut to not need string trees. How does Warmoth make their tilt back necks? Is it 3 or more pieces? I have always disliked multi piece necks as being more fragile than 1 piece necks. I'm a real klutz and prefer things that are not fragile or need extra care.

The other solution which may not solve the nut height issue is to stay with the regular Strat neck and just use a locking nut. That way I could stay with a regular Modern or Vintage/Modern Strat neck, not have any string trees plus the additional benefit that some say the biggest issue with staying in tune is at the nut so a low locking nut could solve the out of tune string issue. I don't particularly like the look of a locking string nut but if I could lower the nut plus not need string trees it might be the solution. I would stick with the normal Fender American Standard 2 post Tremolo bridge but still use a locking nut. This would also save me a few dollars since I wouldn't have to buy the Locking staggered tuners but  just a regular non-staggered set of tuners. What do people think?

 

[AirCap]

Personally, I think a mixture of both approaches is probably where the truth lies....

You're welcome to your opinion, but when you have 40 plus years at the bench like I do..... No machine or program can replicate that.

 

[stratamania]

Personally, I think a mixture of both approaches is probably where the truth lies....

You're welcome to your opinion, but when you have 40 plus years at the bench like I do..... No machine or program can replicate that.

Absolutely no one can take away 40 plus years of experience.

For everyone else, good results can be had by a good craftsman with various types of tools. Pleks included.

For WindsurfMaui, the guitar I had a Plek on was one I also had the frets replaced with stainless steel and had the Plek done at the same place. The Plek was not mandatory or to address any unusual problem. I was happy with the overall results. But then again I am just as happy with Warmoth necks that I have leveled, crowned and dressed with hand tools. It is the detail and accuracy that matters not the type of tool.

Your comments on Strats and nuts needing to be higher are incorrect. Any guitar needs a nut to be adjusted and cut correctly for proper playability.

You can then use either string trees, which are not popular on this forum including with myself or staggered tuners or induce more angle by windings on the post. I do have some Fenders, with string trees on the high E and B. Where you do have to use one find something that gives less friction such as a Graphtec or something else made for the job.

 

[WindsurfMaui]

Stratamania I don't own enough guitars of different makes and models to prove it, but I assume a flat headstock guitar like a Strat needs a higher nut to create the proper angle from the nut to the tuning machine. While a Gibson with a tilted head stock can have a much lower nut because the tilted headstock creates the angle needed. I'll have to go to the local GC to check it out and see if I can prove my theory.

I have been buying the Fender locking Amer Std tuners but I have also been adding a few extra winds on the higher strings to help create a better angle. Of course, those extra winds defeat the reason for the locking tuners so maybe I should just go back to the non locking staggered style and save the extra money.

I received a couple of weeks ago a new , my first, roasted maple/ebony neck which I am, have been hoping to, put on a Strat Hardtail that has a Fender neck that I hate. I wanted to put it on the day it arrived but other issues have kept me too busy to get to it which is extremely frustrating.  :-\  I had hoped that I wouldn't need to have someone do a fret level and dressing. But if I do need it done I was considering going to a Plek station for it b/c of all the positive reviews. But if I going to do experiments on the neck, changing the nut to a locking nut,  tweaking teh truss rod until I find just the right relief for my type of playing etc  don't want to spend money on the Plek station if it would have to be done again if I make some of these changes. Unfortunately, both my vision issues and my lack of skills preclude me from even going near a file to do the dressing myself. But I am optimistic because the neck looks so good and the frets look perfectly level so maybe it will play just as I received it.

I plan on writing a review of this neck. I was originally going to write a review before putting it on the Strat but now I think it would be better for me to wait until it is attached and strung and then I can attach some pictures.