Prefinish assembling

[Surtur]

Does anybody pre-finish/pre-wiring assembling of a guitar?
Have a question regarding neck screws and holes, how to protect  the screw heads of being scratched while screwing the neck to the body?
Will my neck joint holes become lose if screw them down before final assembling?

 

[pabloman]

Use the proper screwdriver. Apply enough force and proper torque so the driver won't slip off of the fastener. The holes will be fine as long as YOU don't strip them out.

 

[bagman67]

WAX YOUR SCREWS.

 

[Cagey]

What they said.

More screws are wrecked by the wrong size screwdriver than anything else except a worn-out screwdriver that's been used to drive the wrong-sized screws. For the $10 it will cost you, go buy a new #1 and #2 Phillips from Sears. You'll be sooo happy. Then, after a few years when they start to misbehave, just take them back. You don't even have to bitch. They'll just give you new ones, no questions asked. And wax your screws, so you don't have to reef on them like some kind of malicious beast bent on destruction.

As for neck joint holes, they're good for a few assembly/disassembly cycles without wear. But, I wouldn't make a habit of it. It is a wood screw, after all, and the hole it goes into is wood, so it's relatively soft. The more you run it in and out, the looser it'll get because wood is compressible and screws are abrasive. If you anticipate a lot of removals, or would like a tad more sustain, installing threaded inserts in the neck and attaching it with machine screws solves both those problems.

 

[Cagey]

Incidentally, Sears' Craftsman screwdrivers are inexpensive, but they're not cheap. They're good tools, which is why they guarantee them for life. Beware of Stanley, MTI, Workforce, Kobalt, etc. They're not the worst ones out there, but they're in competition for the slot. Most of Sears' hand tools that are guaranteed for life are actually MAC tools, which are what discerning machinists use, other than Snap-On's stuff.

Sears has recently started selling another line of hand tools that cost even less, but aren't guaranteed for life. I don't know who makes that stuff, but the fact that they don't have much confidence in their longevity says something you should pay attention to.

The only downside to Craftsman screwdrivers I've ever been able to identify is that whatever the plastic is they use for the handles, it stinks. Literally. A drawer full of the things will knock you head back when you open it for the first couple years. Something about that stuff off-gasses for a while, and it's nasty. On the plus side, it's wicked strong, whatever it is. One of those screwdrivers is tough to wear out or break.

Another point I just remembered - they don't require any paperwork for that lifetime warranty. One of my brothers used to stop at yard sales and if he saw any Craftsman screwdrivers, he'd buy them up no matter what they looked like. After a while, he'd have a bucketload of the things and take them in like a bag of returnable bottles, get a bucketload of new ones for nothing. Like clamps, you can never have enough screwdrivers <grin>

 

[anorakDan]

Cagey, on the topic of threaded inserts; what do you use? Are they sourced from a normal hardware store, or is there something better than the tanged or not-tanged ones I can find at Ace?

I think a machine screw sounds like a much better idea than a wood screw for neck-to-body fit.

 

[pabloman]

Don't use the hardware store stuff. It's junk. It'll break. Cagey will show you pics and provide a link to the good stuff.

 

[Cagey]

Cagey, on the topic of threaded inserts; what do you use? Are they sourced from a normal hardware store, or is there something better than the tanged or not-tanged ones I can find at Ace?

I think a machine screw sounds like a much better idea than a wood screw for neck-to-body fit.

I buy my parts from McMaster-Carr. I like these parts It's their part no. 90016A009

If you're smart, you'll realize that trying to run those in with a screwdriver is going to be an exercise in futility and will likely result in a cocked thread, a sore wrist, and perhaps a wrecked insert, so you'll want to use the proper tool. One of these makes the job a walk in the park... It's their part no. 94110A120

$9.26, in the box, out the door, and quite reusable, which is important because everybody you know will want threaded inserts in their necks once they see what a wonderful thing they are, and you can pick up the cost of a couple cases of beer for doing it for them.

As for screws, you'll want nothing but the best which would be these lovely stainless steel machine screws...

A bag of 50 8-32 x 1 1/2" parts (their part no. 91802A203) will run you $6.26, if you use the ones with the heads designed by Phil Lips. The slotted ones cost more, probably to discourage those inclined toward stupidity.

You'll need a drill press and a 1/4" Forstner bit to open up the mounting holes so they're square to the neck and to enforce a drill depth, and a variable speed hand drill that you'll run very slowly to put in the inserts. Also, a bit a bee's wax is needed to lube them on for the drive in. It's a tight fit.

 

[anorakDan]

Cagey, I don't care what anyone says, you're a national treasure! Thank you most sincerely.

 

[Steve_Karl]

Great info Cagey!

 

[Cagey]

You're both more than welcome. Although, now that I know I'm a national treasure, I suppose I'll have to hide in a very discreet place <grin>

I think all "bolt-on" necks should have these things, but there is some time and care involved that I'm sure the manufacturers don't want to get involved with for cost reasons. Plus, it's one of those things where if everybody doesn't do it, nobody will do it. Besides, the only "provable" benefit is for those who take necks on and off frequently, and how many players do that? Most players wouldn't remove their neck any sooner than they'd cut off their thumbs. On the map of places to go when goofing around with your guitar, that area of exploration is simply marked "Here there be monsters" <grin>

But, then there's the potential "increased sustain" benefit. Theoretically, you can pull that neck-to-body joint tight to about 30,000 PSI. That's wicked tight. Much more so than your standard wood screw could ever hope to do in its wildest dreams, and certainly tighter than any glue joint. I have a hard time believing that number, but I do believe it makes for the tightest interface any neck-to-body joint could have. Can't hurt, is what I'm saying.

 

[anorakDan]

I think it's a great option for Warmoth to consider. It just makes sense.

 

[spauldingrules]

Ok, Cagey - If I am going to order this stuff, while I'm at it what else guitar related should I add to my cart?

 

[Stew]

... and just before we jump off the threaded insert talk ...

I assume these are still easy enough (for my setup guy who has the right tools, not me) to do if I find down the track that the screw holes are getting a bit too loose? My canary strat necks been on and off a half dozen times already, so just wondering.

 

[Cagey]

Ok, Cagey - If I am going to order this stuff, while I'm at it what else guitar related should I add to my cart?

Nothing I can think for from them.

 

[Cagey]

... and just before we jump off the threaded insert talk ...

I assume these are still easy enough (for my setup guy who has the right tools, not me) to do if I find down the track that the screw holes are getting a bit too loose? My canary strat necks been on and off a half dozen times already, so just wondering.

The holes for inserts are much larger, so no problem drilling the old holes out for them. Just have to be careful about centering. Machine screws aren't as forgiving about alignment as wood screws are.

 

[spauldingrules]

Cagey, You said: You'll need a drill press and a 1/4" Forstner bit to open up the mounting holes so they're square to the neck and to enforce a drill depth, and a variable speed hand drill that you'll run very slowly to put in the inserts. Also, a bit a bee's wax is needed to lube them on for the drive in. It's a tight fit.

Why a Forstner bit over a regular drill bit?  And I'm assuming one should only drill the larger hole as deep as the insert is long?

 

[Cagey]

Twist drills don't make as clean a hole as a Forstner, and you have to over-drill the hole to get to a particular depth. Forstners avoid both those things. You try running a 1/4" twist in, and you're liable to tear things up.

Theoretically and ideally, you don't need to drill deeper than the insert, but in practice you want to leave some room for the screw to drive past the insert. If you could get perfectly-sized screws, that would be one thing, but you can't. At best, they come in 1/4" increments in length. Then, the inserts may go in at slightly different depths and the neck/body thicknesses may not be as expected/predicted. So, you gotta have some slop because one thing is certain: you run a screw in too far, and you'll hurt something bad. Could be your fretboard, might seize the screw, might strip the insert's threads, split the wood as the insert tears out, etc. Once that hole is drilled for an insert, that's the only thing that will work. Once the insert is installed getting it back out is a cast iron bitch because installation usually wrecks the slots in the insert that you use to do that.

All things considered, I set the drill depth to roughly 5/8" deep for a 1/4" long insert. That both stops short of the fretboard on Strat/Tele necks and goes longer than the inserts/screws. Using the tool I recommended above, it's impossible to run the insert in too deeply. Its top will end up about 1/16" or so below the surface of the wood, then it'll be too deep for the tool to maintain a grip on it.

And don't forget the wax. I AM NOT KIDDING! You have to lube those things going in, or at best you'll wreck the insert. At worst, you'll wreck the neck. It's a very tight fit in a very hard wood.

Edit: As long as we're on it, I should mention that some woods are harder than others, so a twist drill may not be a bad thing to have in addition to the Forstner. I recently did a Wenge neck, and that is some really hard wood. The inserts didn't want to cut their threads on the way in, and were seizing in the bores about half-way. So, I used a 17/64" twist to open them up just a hair. That did the trick. Which also means you should order a few more inserts than you need. You could wreck a few climbing the learning curve.