Poly over tru oil?

[DarkPenguin]

I'm learning to hate tru oil.  Every time I get the finish almost perfect I manage to go through it.  Think of switching to Polyurethane.  Is this idiotic?  Can I switch mid stream?

I'll probably burn through this, too but at least it will be something new.

 

[Cagey]

I'm not a big fan of True-Oil, either. Mainly because it's not a very robust finish, and getting it to look good is a lotta work. The coats are very thin, which is probably why you keep burning through them, and it takes a lotta coats to build up a decent finish.

You can shoot poly over it, but you may have adhesion problems. A way around that is to put on a barrier coat of shellac. Sticks to anything, and anything sticks to it. But, poly can be a pain in the ass to get good-looking, too. It doesn't work easily once it's cured, so you have to be well set-up to shoot the stuff so it comes out right at first crack. This is why most DIY home finishers shoot lacquer. You can get away with murder with that stuff, because you're constantly working it as you go.

 

[sixstringsamurai]

I used tru oil on my last build.

Came out great IMO, the key I have found with it, is you have to let the last applied coat CURE, like realllllly cure.

So that was where having a heat gun and cast iron steam registers comes in handy.

Tru oil can achieve a nice high, Solid gloss finish it just takes tones of patients to work with.

My two cents.

 

[DarkPenguin]

My patience ran out.  It is lathered up in shellac now.  I hope to spray some lacquer this weekend.

Thanks for the help, guys!

 

[stubhead]

Why don't you just stop burning through it? :guitaristgif:

Every time I read about another mistake made that's solely a result of working TOO hard rather than not hard enough, it registers on the scale (in my mind) as another nano-molecule in favor of a nice, relaxing, lazy half-assed work ethic. And if you try that and you're still burning through, just gonna hafta shoot for a quarter-assed work ethic next time! 0.375-assed, at the very most. Ooooh, how tiring... nap time! :icon_thumright:

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXrrr... XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

In all seriousness, if you thin Tru-Oil HALF-AND-HALF with naptha or mineral sprouts or Laphroaig, OR if you thin Poly HALF-AND-HALF with water, then:

put on one coat AS THIN AS POSSIBLE (which is easy cause it's just like water) then you wait 30 to 45 minutes, then put on another coat AS THIN AS POSSIBLE (which is easy cause it's just like water) then you wait 30 to 45 minutes, then put on another coat AS THIN AS POSSIBLE (which is easy cause it's just like water); then you wait 2 hours or better, overnight. Bang it back a ways with wet/dry 220, BE CAREFUL. 320 on the edges, even 400. NO I'm not kidding. JUST A LITTLE WAYs, oh Combusto-Dude. BE CAREFUL. It's like, three swipes with very little pressure. Then:

put on one coat AS THIN AS POSSIBLE (which is easy cause it's just like water) then you wait 30 to 45 minutes, then put on another coat AS THIN AS POSSIBLE (which is easy cause it's just like water) then you wait 30 to 45 minutes, then put on another coat AS THIN AS POSSIBLE (which is easy cause it's just like water). And you're DONE. Just - STOP. You're DONE.***

I'm really sure of two things.

1) People screw this up because they just can't believe anything could be so easy, so they just keep going. After it was already DONE.

2)a} People who tell you to spread it on full thickness, then scrape it off, then some-thing-or-another, then spread it on full thickness, then scrape it off, then some-thing-or-another, etc., are trying to duplicate the work flow of some factory that's making 40 guitars or 75 étagères at a time. You're not.

2)b} COMPANIES that tell you to spread it on full thickness, then scrape it off, then some-thing-or-another, then spread it on full thickness, then scrape it off, then some dumbass thing-or-another, etc. - they have figured out they can trick you into wasting a whole bottle of Tru-Oil making just one guitar, instead of six. Haha! Haha!

How can throwing away scraperfull after scraperfull of perfectly good finish be a sensible thing to do? :icon_scratch:

A: The only (dint say sensible) reason you could have for scraping perfectly good finish OFF of something that you are, after all, trying to put finish ON would be because it was TOO THICK when you put it on! WO! HEY! Why, you'd almost think tha... th... bzt... bzzzt. Well, no. O.K.; You're not permitted to THINK! Just follow the instructions, O.K.?

"I vas joozt followink zee ORDERTZ, mien Commandant!"

goddam smartasses....

...reason you have for scraping perfectly good finish OFF of something that you are, after all, trying to put finish ON...

...reason you have for scraping perfectly good finish OFF of something that you are, after all, trying to put finish ON...

...reason you have for scraping perfectly good finish OFF of something that you are, after all, trying to put finish ON...

- Today's Happy-Happy Meditation Mantra! go git'm bones.

***(If you want alder/poplar smoothy-smooth, or the smooth part of swamp ash smoothy-smooth, you can re-peat the peat twice more, i.e. totalistically:
gloop three times, knock it back, sleep.
gloop three times, knock it back, sleep.
gloop three times ~

~MAYbe~ knock it back, sleep.
gloop three times.)

 

[stratamania]

Here's a link to my build thread where I mention tru oil and some photos of it on the back of the neck.

http://unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=22445.msg335422#msg335422

Where I mention light sand, it is barely touching it and a gentle process.  Put it on sparingly and there is little to do in terms of sanding. In this case less is more.

 

[DarkPenguin]

When I toss this body in the fire I'll, well, I'll probably buy a finished body next time but, if I don't do that, I will do exactly as you say.

As it is I'm currently half-assing my way through the lacquering process.  How many coats of this?  And how many hours should one lie unconscious on their garage floor between coats?

I see much sanding in my future.  Probably of the more vigorous type than described above.  It does occur to me that if I'd painted the damned thing orange I could name it the Sunkistcaster and be done with it.

 

[Cagey]

A good finish is not a trivial task. But, it's very rewarding if you pull it off. You might want to read this tutorial on lacquer finishes. Follow that, and you should be happy with the results.

Note: don't think you can skip steps or otherwise screw around. It's a long process, and you have to do it or you'll fail.

 

[Surf n Music]

StubHead  I enjoy your tutorials. I wanna try  a truoil finish. I will do some practice go troughs first but I like the less is more approach. I remeber the mineral spirits when I try.

 

[DarkPenguin]

A good finish is not a trivial task. But, it's very rewarding if you pull it off. You might want to read this tutorial on lacquer finishes. Follow that, and you should be happy with the results.

Note: don't think you can skip steps or otherwise screw around. It's a long process, and you have to do it or you'll fail.

Thanks!  I've already been doing this for a month.  What's another month?

 

[Cagey]

If you've got another guitar to play, then be patient. It's probably gonna take longer than a month. If the weather is kind to you, you're probably looking at a week's work at three or four coats a day, with sanding in between. Then, you've gotta let it hang and cure. It'll feel dry enough to play around with, but it's not. Takes a long time to harden to the point where you can finish sand and buff out.

 

[stubhead]

The only way to make a finish dry faster is to thin it - seems backward, but it's true. So, on each coat you're putting on less finish and more thinner... This means more coats if you're trying to put a glass finish on swamp ash, yikes.

Two "facts" here:

Wood "ought to" breathe, it's the only way to get good tone (even on a solid plank!), therefore an ultra-thin finish is not just spiffy, but required;

And, the vast majority of old Fenders and Gibsons were finished to mirror-smoothness, using processes that owe far more to auto body shops than to venerable old master craftsmen quaintly cranking out a few violins a year.

The only way I could properly reconcile these two "facts" and get on with my life was to conclude that somebody's shipping a line of hooey, here. And, indeed, if you don't give up early and continue to tease apart the narrative - it turns out it's ALL total B.S.! Neither Leo Fender or Ted McCarty or Roger Rossmeisl or any other visionary artist creator-types visited wrinkly little old violin makers to figure out how to make wood breathe, because the vision these guys were trying to create consisted of 

A REALLY BIG HEAP OF MONEY.
​

They didn't give a rats ass what it sounded like - Leo Fender HATED rock 'n' roll - they just wanted you to BUY the damn thing. Look - it's the same color as a '57 Chevy! And '57 Chevy's are cool... Look! It's the same color as gold, man, and gold is expensive, man...

I'm pretty sure that when you fill up all the pores on a board with epoxy or lacquer or clay (the secret ingredient of most wood fillers - "hey man! I just slobbered CLAY all over my GUITAR!!!" -  ???) it can't BREATHE anymore. And if you do find a way to "finish" a guitar so that it can breathe, it's going to breathe in, and out,  all the changes in humidity because wood is pretty much a sponge that way. A lot of people who make... wood stuff, like... furniture? n'houses, other trivial things.... They'll tell you the REASON to finish wood is to keep the water out, that's why they work so hard to DRY WOOD OUT in the first place! Wo! Hey! Because soggy wood is a bad thing...

On the in-between coats, you can do light sanding after a few hours, but overnight is better. On the LAST coat - you have to hang it until it's dry. If you can still smell anything, it's still "out-gassing", meaning it's not cured. I've had thin Tru-Oil cure to non-smelly in as little as two weeks, but only the nose knows for sure.

Sanding away on icky-sticky undried glub is not a real forward-oriented, win-win scenario. So here again, we run into the differences between how a factory will finish 250 guitars at a time and how YOU can finish guitars, one at a time. The factory may do steps that make no sense to one person, and VICE-VERSA. In the 1950's Fender and Gibson simply didn't have any way to take advantage of the science of polymerization that we do now, because, the products didn't exist then. Though if you want to finish a single guitar the same way Grandpa finished 250 guitars you can knock yourself out! Hmmm. Why do Warmoth, Music Man, Vigier, Suhr and Paul Reed Smith use poly finishes when "everybody knows" that 1970's Fenders used thick poly finishes and that 1970's Fenders sucked, except when they didn't, like Starcasters and two-"wide-range" humbucking Tele Deluxes? HEY! MAYBE YOU CAN GET SCUBA GEAR FOR GUITARS SO THEY CAN BREATHE UNDER POLY! I'll just bet that's what Fender did... :binkybaby:

It's a lot easier to finish a board in such a way that it clearly, openly, sustainily transmits all the flubs, squizzes, znorts and blubs of your crappy guitar playing, than it is to become a good guitar player. There's some pithy saying about having more money than sense, but I can't remember it, hmmm maybe it's in my wallet.... :dontknow:

 

[Day-mun]

:laughing3:

 

[bagman67]

I don't believe I've ever znorted on a guitar, but I've certainly squizzed and blubbed.  Almost always on a poly-finished body.

 

[Cagey]

If you have wood that needs to breathe, you need to get out your shotgun or deer rifle and shut it up for good.

 

[DarkPenguin]

If you have wood that needs to breathe, you need to get out your shotgun or deer rifle and shut it up for good.

It is why we have axes.

 

[DarkPenguin]

I'm guessing I shouldn't put down a coat of lacquer when it is 40 degrees and pouring rain.

 

[Cagey]

Not unless you want it to drool and sag all over the place. Bare minimum, you want it to be at least 65°F or higher and 65% humidity or lower. Even that's pushing it. exceed those limits, and you're likely to be stripping it and starting over. No fun.

 

[DarkPenguin]

Much warmer today.

If that went down smooth I'll wait 2-3 weeks before continuing.

If felt like a block of plastic before this coat.  I hope the wood doesn't need to breath because it sure ain't gonna.

 

[DarkPenguin]

Grrr....  More sanding tomorrow...