Plop, plop, fizz, fizz, oh what a relief it...isn't.

[Torment Leaves Scars]

So a buddy of mine and I decided to do some recording this weekend, and after he left, I decided to kick the amp back on.  Unfortunately, when I did so, I was greeted with hardly ANY sound, even when turning the Master Volume up.  Basically, regardless how high I turned the Master Volume, sound was just above a whisper, and cranked to its loudest, was no louder than that of a low speaking voice.  Even at this low volume, the sound is fizzy and a bit staticky.  :dontknow:

Yesterday, he mentioned he heard some slight clicking or popping sounds coming from my speaker, saying I had a tube going bad.  Given I haven't ever replaced the tubes and I've had the head for two years, I guess this wouldn't be a surprise.

So, does anyone have any suggestions?  Could this be a bad tube?

 

[Patrick from Davis]

Does the amp have an effects loop?  Unless the amp has only one output tube, I don't believe this would happen.  Sometimes the effects loops are mechanically activated by putting a cord in.  It is a nifty trick with a stereo jack being a switch.  However, if crud gets into the jack, then things can get weird.  I'd check that and see if the foot switch is on or there is something weird goin on with the effects loop cables and jacks.
Patrick

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

Does the amp have an effects loop?  Unless the amp has only one output tube, I don't believe this would happen.  Sometimes the effects loops are mechanically activated by putting a cord in.  It is a nifty trick with a stereo jack being a switch.  However, if crud gets into the jack, then things can get weird.  I'd check that and see if the foot switch is on or there is something weird goin on with the effects loop cables and jacks.
Patrick

There is an effects loop, but only two knobs, a Send and Return.  I tried messing with them, but no dice.

 

[Patrick from Davis]

No switch to turn the loop on or off?  Try putting a cord from the send to the return and see if there is a change.
Patrick

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

No switch to turn the loop on or off?  Try putting a cord from the send to the return and see if there is a change.
Patrick

I tried that and it didn't change anything.  Someone suggested it could be the output transformer.  I had a friend visit this weekend and we did some recording.  He's "experienced" with home recording, so he set everything up.  What he DIDN'T do was keep the head plugged into a cabinet, apparently.  He said he just "went direct, like in a studio"  Yeah, whatever that means...

Anyway, looks like a big lesson learned...don't let anybody touch your sh**.  I guess I'm gonna drop it off to have it looked at and repaired, if possible.  I'm clueless when it comes to tube amps.  At this point, I'm just hoping the head is not destroyed and I'm not out $1,000.

 

[mayfly]

So you ran the head without a load?  For how long?  If the head was properly designed there will be a current path to ground when nothing is plugged in which would prevent damage as long as it was not run for long.

Some other things to try:

1 - plug the preamp out (Effects Send) into a PA or stereo or something to make sure that's working.
2 - do the opposite and plug your IPhone or whatever into the Effects Return to see if that's working
3 - When you plugged the speaker back in, you DID get the plug in all the way - Right?

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

So you ran the head without a load?  For how long?  If the head was properly designed there will be a current path to ground when nothing is plugged in which would prevent damage as long as it was not run for long.

Some other things to try:

1 - plug the preamp out (Effects Send) into a PA or stereo or something to make sure that's working.
2 - do the opposite and plug your IPhone or whatever into the Effects Return to see if that's working
3 - When you plugged the speaker back in, you DID get the plug in all the way - Right?

I'd guess it was run for two or three hours.  I thought the sound was just exiting into the earphones and he had it plugged into something.

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

So you ran the head without a load?  For how long?  If the head was properly designed there will be a current path to ground when nothing is plugged in which would prevent damage as long as it was not run for long.

Some other things to try:

1 - plug the preamp out (Effects Send) into a PA or stereo or something to make sure that's working.
2 - do the opposite and plug your IPhone or whatever into the Effects Return to see if that's working
3 - When you plugged the speaker back in, you DID get the plug in all the way - Right?

I can hear the guitar through my stereo speakers when I plug into the Send.  I'm also getting a very ear-piercing "EEEEEEEEEE!"  I plugged the stereo into the Return and I get nothing.

 

[Patrick from Davis]

Eek.  Well, you can always find the output transformer, it is generally the smaller of the two, and give it a smell.  If you get the burnt smell, yeah...  What you're gonna need is a shotgun, and a key to the room with his equipment.  I am joking.  Assuming it is a 100 watt amp head, it should cost $60-150 for a new output transformer.  There could be other parts that fried, and the real cost is the tech's time to figure out these things.  Sorry to hear about this, just makes me cringe.
Patrick

 

[bagman67]

Do solid state amps also tend to crap out when they run unloaded like this?


Bagman

 

[Patrick from Davis]

No, solid state amps just sit there.  Tube amps don't like higher impedances than what they are set at, Solid state amps don't like lower impedances than what they are set at.  If there are no speakers on the amp, it is an infinite impedance, well close to it.  I am sure that there are exceptions to this vague generalization.
Patrick

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

Eek.  Well, you can always find the output transformer, it is generally the smaller of the two, and give it a smell.  If you get the burnt smell, yeah...  What you're gonna need is a shotgun, and a key to the room with his equipment.  I am joking.  Assuming it is a 100 watt amp head, it should cost $60-150 for a new output transformer.  There could be other parts that fried, and the real cost is the tech's time to figure out these things.  Sorry to hear about this, just makes me cringe.
Patrick

Yeah, I'm pretty mad, and to top it off, he sends me a text telling me my head's a POS.  Right now, I'd really love to beat the hell outta him.  So, while we were talking about that key to his room...

 

[Re-Pete]

If your amp is a brand name amp, contact the manufacturer or their local distributor & ask them who THEY deal with for warranty repairs. While your amp maybe out of warranty, at least you have a chance of a proper appraisal from someone who knows the brand of amp & may have access to parts. Make it clear to them you've been talking with the manufacturer/distributor.

Get a proper written quote for the repairs  - a parts list of parts required and an estimate of labour time/cost. If they baulk at doing this, tell them you need the advice in writing as someone else is paying for it. DON'T tell them it's an insurance claim or they will bump the cost up. Don't leave the amp with them for any longer than you have to, until you decide what to do.

If their quote is expensive, talk to your friend about sharing the cost.  If your 'experienced' friend is so clumsy he'd fry your amp without a load (if that is indeed the problem with your amp), better check the rest of equipment used in that session.

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

If your amp is a brand name amp, contact the manufacturer or their local distributor & ask them who THEY deal with for warranty repairs. While your amp maybe out of warranty, at least you have a chance of a proper appraisal from someone who knows the brand of amp & may have access to parts. Make it clear to them you've been talking with the manufacturer/distributor.

Get a proper written quote for the repairs  - a parts list of parts required and an estimate of labour time/cost. If they baulk at doing this, tell them you need the advice in writing as someone else is paying for it. DON'T tell them it's an insurance claim or they will bump the cost up. Don't leave the amp with them for any longer than you have to, until you decide what to do.

If their quote is expensive, talk to your friend about sharing the cost.  If your 'experienced' friend is so clumsy he'd fry your amp without a load (if that is indeed the problem with your amp), better check the rest of equipment used in that session.

There's no way he'll share the cost.  He refuses to take any responsibility for it, whatsoever.  Instead, his reply was, "What a piece of junk."  I told him he blew the amp by not keeping it plugged into a speaker and he just refused to believe that.  Not to mention, he's as broke as a joke, so it would never happen.  He's one of those jackasses who does no wrong and blames everyone else for everything that happens to him.  Anyway, that's another story...

Yeah, I'm stuck eating this one, and I guess it's my fault for ASSuming it was hooked up correctly.  This is partly my fault.  We all know what happens when we ASSume. :tard:

As for the equipment, the rest of it was all his, and given his attitude about the whole thing, I hope he blew every piece he hooked that head up to.  The first thing he'll do is call and scream, demanding I reimburse him for his equipment he blew up.  Then, I'm just going to "return the favor" and tell him, "What a piece of junk."  Well, that's what I'm hoping for, anyway...

To my knowledge, he just hooked my head straight into a mixer, then the mixer into a speaker.  Afterwards, the mixer seemed to work fine, so I'm gonna guess all the other gear survived his idiocy except for my head.  :doh:

I've already boxed up the head and I'm dropping it off at the music store today.  They don't do any in-house work and said they're just going to send it back to Peavey.  Given the circumstances, I guess I'd rather have the manufacturer do the work on it, as who knows a piece of equipment better than the manufacturer, right?  While I'll probably pay more, my main concern is that the repair(s) are done correctly.  I guess I'm just worried about the cost of the repairs, as the head was "only" $1,000.  If repair prices are creeping up to what I paid for the head, I guess I'll just cut my losses and get a replacement.  :dontknow:

 

[Jumble Jumble]

You might want to show him these extracts from the manuals of other "pieces of junk":

Marshall JCM800:

DO NOT switch the amplifier on without a loudspeaker connected.
ENSURE that any extension cabinets used are of the correct impedance.

With all-valve amplifiers it is imperative that the amp is connected to a load whilst in operation and that the impedance selected on the amp matches the total impedance of the speaker cabinet(s) being used. For example, if the amp is running into a single 16 Ohm cab, the amp should accordingly be set to 16 Ohms. If running into two 16 Ohm cabs, the amp should be set to 8 Ohms. If running into two 8 Ohm cabs, the amp should be set to 4 Ohms. Failure to comply with these points will result in damage to the amplifier.

Fender Deluxe:

A speaker must always be connected at this jack when  the  amplifier  is  ON.  A speaker impedance load of 8O should be used to avoid distortion or damage to the amplifier

Vox AC30:

WARNING ! NEVER operate this amplifier without the loudspeaker load being connected. Serious damage can occur otherwise.

Bogner Ecstasy:

Always make sure that a speaker cabinet or equivalent load device is connected to the appropriate speaker output before turning the amp on.

Matchless DC-30:

Tube type amplifiers are inherently sensitive to speaker impedance matching. This is due to the relationship of the internal resistance’s of the output transformer, the output tubes, and the load they are required to drive. A load imbalance can cause loss of power, self-oscillation, or excessive current to flow in the output stage. In severe cases this condition can cause the output transformer to run hot and may damage and destroy the output tubes. This kind of damage is not covered by the warranty.

All pieces of junk, right?

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

You might want to show him these extracts from the manuals of other "pieces of junk":

Marshall JCM800:

DO NOT switch the amplifier on without a loudspeaker connected.
ENSURE that any extension cabinets used are of the correct impedance.

With all-valve amplifiers it is imperative that the amp is connected to a load whilst in operation and that the impedance selected on the amp matches the total impedance of the speaker cabinet(s) being used. For example, if the amp is running into a single 16 Ohm cab, the amp should accordingly be set to 16 Ohms. If running into two 16 Ohm cabs, the amp should be set to 8 Ohms. If running into two 8 Ohm cabs, the amp should be set to 4 Ohms. Failure to comply with these points will result in damage to the amplifier.

Fender Deluxe:

A speaker must always be connected at this jack when  the  amplifier  is  ON.  A speaker impedance load of 8O should be used to avoid distortion or damage to the amplifier

Vox AC30:

WARNING ! NEVER operate this amplifier without the loudspeaker load being connected. Serious damage can occur otherwise.

Bogner Ecstasy:

Always make sure that a speaker cabinet or equivalent load device is connected to the appropriate speaker output before turning the amp on.

Matchless DC-30:

Tube type amplifiers are inherently sensitive to speaker impedance matching. This is due to the relationship of the internal resistance’s of the output transformer, the output tubes, and the load they are required to drive. A load imbalance can cause loss of power, self-oscillation, or excessive current to flow in the output stage. In severe cases this condition can cause the output transformer to run hot and may damage and destroy the output tubes. This kind of damage is not covered by the warranty.

All pieces of junk, right?

Yep, ALL garbage!

Yeah, the words coming from the idiot who claimed his solid state MG100 (?) 100W halfstack was better than a JCM800, Mesa Triple Rec, and Bogner Uberschall...

According to "The Book of Dave," solid states reign supreme in the realm of quality and sound.  Personally, after having played through tubes for two years, I can't stomach the sound of a solid state...

 

[Jumble Jumble]

Ah, he's used to solid state is he? They're good for uber-clean sounds (JC-120) but not much else.

I think the best way forward (wanting to remain friends) is to point out to him that it is absolutely standard for a tube amp that it must be plugged into either a speaker or a dummy load before it's switched on. Amps that allow not doing this are rare. Tell him that the fact that he didn't know this is what has damaged the amp. However, you also need to bear a little responsibility yourself. When you loan someone a piece of kit, find out what they're using it for and make sure you're happy with it. I'll assume you didn't lend him the user manual, so there was no warning for him to see (unless there's one on the back of the amp, and there haven't been on any of mine). So what you can say is, that he damaged the amp, but it was through accident of ignorance, not any negligence or deliberate malice. And make sure he knows that in the future, there are two considerations:

1. A tube amp must always be loaded with either a speaker or a dummy.
2. You don't record tube amps by taking the preamp straight to the desk anyway, it'll sound bad. You record them by mic'ing up a cabinet.

If you want to stay friends with him, this is the "no hard feelings" chat that will hopefully have him back down a bit and apologise.

[Aside: Of course, these days, I think tube amps are for home, rehearsal, and small club gigs where the amp is loud enough on its own. I think any time you find yourself putting a mic in front of a cab, you should forget the whole thing and use either an AxeFX, or perhaps even better, a KPA that's loaded with a profile that you took of your own amp mic'd up perfectly before you stored it back safely in your house or rehearsal space.]

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

Ah, he's used to solid state is he? They're good for uber-clean sounds (JC-120) but not much else.

I think the best way forward (wanting to remain friends) is to point out to him that it is absolutely standard for a tube amp that it must be plugged into either a speaker or a dummy load before it's switched on. Amps that allow not doing this are rare. Tell him that the fact that he didn't know this is what has damaged the amp. However, you also need to bear a little responsibility yourself. When you loan someone a piece of kit, find out what they're using it for and make sure you're happy with it. I'll assume you didn't lend him the user manual, so there was no warning for him to see (unless there's one on the back of the amp, and there haven't been on any of mine). So what you can say is, that he damaged the amp, but it was through accident of ignorance, not any negligence or deliberate malice. And make sure he knows that in the future, there are two considerations:

1. A tube amp must always be loaded with either a speaker or a dummy.
2. You don't record tube amps by taking the preamp straight to the desk anyway, it'll sound bad. You record them by mic'ing up a cabinet.

If you want to stay friends with him, this is the "no hard feelings" chat that will hopefully have him back down a bit and apologise.

[Aside: Of course, these days, I think tube amps are for home, rehearsal, and small club gigs where the amp is loud enough on its own. I think any time you find yourself putting a mic in front of a cab, you should forget the whole thing and use either an AxeFX, or perhaps even better, a KPA that's loaded with a profile that you took of your own amp mic'd up perfectly before you stored it back safely in your house or rehearsal space.]

Oh, you're damned right this is partially my fault, as I mentioned in prior posts.  This is what I get for ASSuming it was hooked up correctly!  I knew exactly what we were using it for, as I was present for the whole thing.

As for modelers, whether it's AxeFX, KPA, or another modeler, I'll pass.  I'd rather play through a real piece of equipment over something like that.  I've heard AxeFX and other "toys" played back to back with the actual piece of equipment they were "supposed to be" emulating and as the old saying goes, nothing is as good as the original.

 

[Jumble Jumble]

Being in the room with the amp, yeah, me too, I'd rather play through a tube amp and a guitar cab. I like the way the sound changes as you move around the room, stuff like that. Being on stage in a small place, again yeah. Like I say though, put a mic in front of a cabinet and there's nobody who can tell the sound coming out of that mic from a sound coming out a a Kemper. Course, if you're still in the room with the amp, or close enough to hear it, you can still hear the amp and it's different. But if you're getting your sound from a wedge monitor or IEM or whatever, being fed from the PA, then yeah you won't know.

Or maybe you can tell: I could post up some clips from both methods, and we could see what the differences are. Not for a while yet, I'm still waiting on some gear.

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

Being in the room with the amp, yeah, me too, I'd rather play through a tube amp and a guitar cab. I like the way the sound changes as you move around the room, stuff like that. Being on stage in a small place, again yeah. Like I say though, put a mic in front of a cabinet and there's nobody who can tell the sound coming out of that mic from a sound coming out a a Kemper. Course, if you're still in the room with the amp, or close enough to hear it, you can still hear the amp and it's different. But if you're getting your sound from a wedge monitor or IEM or whatever, being fed from the PA, then yeah you won't know.

Or maybe you can tell: I could post up some clips from both methods, and we could see what the differences are. Not for a while yet, I'm still waiting on some gear.

The only way I would play through some modeler is if I was feeling lazy and didn't feel like hauling my gear.  Sure, I think they're fun to mess around with, and to an extent, I even find them appealing, but I think even the expensive ones just fall short.  I like the idea of getting a lot of effects for a cheaper cost in some cases, but at the same time, there's just something satisfying about staring down at a pedal-board full of pedals.