Phaser in effects loop?

[tt0511]

I did a little reading today about effects chains and reconfigured mine.  I tried my mxr phase 90 in the loop before the delay.  The sound of the effect itself was awesome, but just plugging the pedal in caused a very noticeable amount of noise to my otherwise clean sound.  I thought it may be the pedal so I tried my Ibanez Flanger/Chorus in the loop the same way and got the same jump in noise.  What's going on?  My rig is pretty quiet when these effects are run in front of the amp.  I plugged my a digitech whammy in the same place and it is dead quiet.  Are these modulation pedals really that crappy?  I mean, the effects are great but the noise generation almost makes it unusable realistically IMO.  I'd kinda be ashamed to be at a gig and have that happen!  My current path is as follows:

guitar > Boss NS-2 > Boss Tuner > MXR dyna comp > wah > Boss DS-2 > amp.\

amp > effects loop out > digitech whammy > line 6 delay > effects loop return

 

[dbw]

Why is the noise suppressor way out in front?  Use it to suppress the noise dude

 

[Volitions Advocate]

The other guitarist in my band does the same thing and I can't figoure out why..  The only noise you're cleaning up that way are the buzz from the pickups.  Put it in the last spot to clean up all the signals.

My chain is always Tone Modifiers (wah, eq), Dirt, Modulation, Timebased, cleanup.  with the exception of putting an EQ in after the dirty signals as an extention of my distortion.

Putting a phaser after your distortion, whether it be your preamp or a pedal will be a very very dramatic difference.  I like the sound of a thick phaser.

 

[callaway]

Are you running the pedals off an ac adapter or batteries? If you're running them all off the same non-isolated ac adapter, including ones before the amp and in the loop, then you're getting a ground loop that's causing noise.

 

[mayfly]

Are you running the pedals off an ac adapter or batteries? If you're running them all off the same non-isolated ac adapter, including ones before the amp and in the loop, then you're getting a ground loop that's causing noise.

+1 You've got a ground loop there.  Maybe even from the effects loop itself.

 

[tt0511]

You guys are awesome!  It was a ground loop.  I didn't realize that could happen.  I'm a little new to amp setups.  When I started playing a few years ago I just played through a Guitar Port on my computer.  I graduated to a real tube amp and it rocks!  Peavey Classic 30, Mesa Boogie Thiele 1x12 closed back extension cab, both loaded with Celestion Vintage 30's.  I have a really good sounding rig and I'm glad it didn't cost me thousands of buckaroos!

As long as I have the Phase 90 running off of battery power, the noise increase is very minor compared to before.  I suppose I need to buy another One Spot power supply to run anything in the effects loop from a different supply? What's confusing about that is that all of the effects are run off the same power "strip" from the wall, but I guess that doesn't matter?

Regarding Noise Suppressor location in the chain, I had read some forums and discussions about it.  The majority of things I read said to put it first in the chain because most of your noise is going to come from your guitar if it's not shielded.  My guitars are not shielded so I've been using the NS-2 to knock that out early before compressing the signal (which theoretically should make it more invasive to get the noise back out of the signal when everything's been squashed together like that). 

But, I moved the NS-2 to the end of the effects loop as you guys suggested and I think I like that better.  I quietened down the rig just that little bit more so that there is just a very, very low level power hum coming from that amp that's there when there is no input at all.

 

[Volitions Advocate]

Things like Power bricks are supposed to help with cancelling the ground hum aren't they?

 

[dbw]

Good call callaway and Mayfly!

Knew you'd like moving the NS-2   I see what you mean about putting the noise suppressor before the compressor, but I still think end of the chain is better... you can also try it right before your distortion, see how that works.

 

[tt0511]

Just in case my question in the last post didn't get caught since it's buried in text,

If I run the effects loop stuff off another separate One Spot power supply and daisy chain, will I be good or would I still be stuck with a ground loop?  I hate to go spend the $30 just to find out it has the same problem.  I haven't tried running off of batteries but it seems like that would get awful expensive.

 

[Patrick from Davis]

The power supplies noted, like the Voodoo Labs Pedal Power Two and others, have the power come in and then they use separate ground isolating circuits so that the pedals are powered (and grounded) off of their own circuit.  There is a number of parts to do this which is why they're usually pricy, and they make their money as well.  The problem with wall warts is that they tend to transfer the "dirty" AC power noise, and this gets heard by your signal train and amplified by your amp.  Amps also can contribute to this dirty noise with their grounds, which can be a real problem if you are trying to split your signal into two amps with signal grounding issues.  Batteries are self contained with no dirty power issues, so they are a wonderful way to test for this.  If you want to use a power brick of some sort, look for, "isolated power source," or something comparable in the marketing propaganda and then go and read reviews.  Good luck
Patrick

 

[mayfly]

Also, if you are really stuck, you can just remove the ground from the send or return cable(s) and let it be grounded via the supply.

 

[tt0511]

Well, I tried putting everything out front of the amp and just avoiding the effects loop and it sounds good to me.  There's no noise generation other than the amp's natural noise (which is pretty low).  I tried Boss's recommendations here:

I don't know what the difference is between putting delay out front at the end of the chain and putting it in the amp's effects loop.  I think they mean don't put delay in the NS2 effects loop, but they still show delay out front.  I wouldn't think it could be much difference because I can't really hear much of any.  I had the delay in the amp effects loop.  I may play with moving it back and forth to see if there's a difference.

I ran the guitar right into the tuner, then into the NS2, then to the amp.  All of the effects are chained from NS2 effects send > comp > distortion > phaser/flanger units > NS2 effects return.

Sounds exactly the same regarding noise as it did with the NS2 in the effects loop.  This makes a little more sense to me because all noise is eliminated before ever making it to the preamp.  But the NS2 worked great in the effects loop as well.  But, I think there is a slight difference with the Phaser and Flanger being at the front of the amp versus the effects loop.  Not a huge difference, but it's there.  I'll keep experimenting but for now I'm happy.

 

[tt0511]

I think I found the answer.  I called the manufacturer of One Spot, ...Visual Sound and they are only about 45 minutes from where I work.  I tried plugging the guitar into the amp direct and using the One Spot to power the flanger, chorus and NS-2 in the effects loop while also running the Line 6 delay on it's own power supply.  There was no hum from the pedals at all.  That seems to indicate that I need to buy another One Spot (19.99) to run my effects loop pedals on their own power and not mix the daisy chain with "out front" pedals and "effects loop" pedals.

 

[stubhead]

Ground loops and phase relations can be so weird that using batteries become a good idea, again. I don't like them much, and a lot of weird things happen with headroom, but playing at gigs in weird little non-union-wired bars, I tend to revert to batteries.* Also, phase and flange do very different things placed pre and post overdrive. The "classic" rock sound of the 70's and 80's was a pedal in front of some screaming amps, but I like the way they sound after the overdrive, too - more like a dragon, less like a rocketship.

*(Weird, I know)

 

[tt0511]

Ground loops and phase relations can be so weird that using batteries become a good idea, again. I don't like them much, and a lot of weird things happen with headroom, but playing at gigs in weird little non-union-wired bars, I tend to revert to batteries.* Also, phase and flange do very different things placed pre and post overdrive. The "classic" rock sound of the 70's and 80's was a pedal in front of some screaming amps, but I like the way they sound after the overdrive, too - more like a dragon, less like a rocketship.

*(Weird, I know)

Yeah, ...I can see what you mean about those non-union-wired bars, lol.  I don't have much experience playing out live so I haven't run into that yet.  I do have a definite preference that my phaser and flanger go in the effects loop apparently though.  I know the ground loop problems would be eliminated by a Pedal Power unit, but I just had a hard time believing that this is a $150 problem, ...and the One Spot tech agreed.  I like the clean look of a board with the power unit below and no daisy chain showing.  But, I don't have the dollars to throw at that just yet.  Plus I'm trying to decide whether I want to build a pedal board or get a Line 6 M13 or equivalent.  That's in another thread.  But every decision affects every other decision, ha ha.

 

[tt0511]

Just for the record, so someone having the same problem in the future may be able to get the answer:

I called the maker of One Spot, ...Visual Sound.  Turns out they are right down the road from me and were willing for me to bring my rig in to figure this out if we couldn't figure it out over the phone.  The guy I spoke with was very friendly.  He'd never ran into this problem.  I tried running the guitar direct to the amp and powered several effects in the effects loop with the One Spot and daisy chain.  Turns out there was no hum when I did this!  (Duh!  I don't know why I didn't try that before.  DopE!)That should indicate I just need another isolated One Spot to run effects loop boxes.  So I bought one and tried it and whallah!  No more problem!  

So, if anyone has this problem, you need to run your effects loop boxes on an isolated daisy chain if you are using a One Spot power supply to avoid a ground loop issue.  No need to buy a Pedal Power or similar box at their hefty price, ..unless you really want to.  For $19.99 for a One Spot and $8.95 for the daisy chain, you can power something like 8 or 10 pedals at 9v, and power one line 6 box.  Pretty inexpensive clean power there.

Guys, thanks again for your helpful input. :icon_thumright:

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

The people with the effects are as funny as the effects chains.  No 2 people ever set their's up the same way.  There is always a deliberate reason for doing their it certain way.  They know something we don't.  Oh, well.  Nothing to add as usual, just my observation.