Nitrocellulose Finnish (Aerosol)

[B3Guy]

Hey, all! Me again . . . I'm wondering how much it would cost me for finishing supplies to do a Black Red Yellow Burst finish in nitrocellulose lacquer, as well as what the breakdown of step-by-step finishing would be. (this would be on a Warmoth body.) First, do I need to prep a Warmoth body, or will it be ready for finishing out of the box? From what I understand of the process, first an amber dye is applied, then there is a clear or sealer or something? then the red is applied, then black last. Finally, clear, but I'm not sure how many coats or wether there is supposed to be sanding or buffing in-between. I'm not looking for a perfect finish, just a good looking one, and I'd also be interested in any techniques for making a "less stable" finish . . . you know, one that will wear a little faster. I've read up some and I understand that the aerosol cans should be kept warm, the nozzles kept clean, and to spray light and "from the center". I'll mess around some beforehand on a practice scrap, just to get a general feel for how the cans spray. I've never done this before, but I am an art student, so I've got a good eye and a pretty steady hand, as well as pretty good patience and ability to stick to the proper methods.

So, how much will supplies cost me? What do I need and how much (one body) . . . and what is a decent or low priced brand of lacquer? (StewMac has ColorTone, but is there anything I could pick up locally for cheaper?) Thanks!

 

[Cagey]

Hmmm... a half-assed finish that'll wear out fast... that'll be $42. Adding the Gibson logo to the headstock will be an additional $3,800. It's kinda sorta inlaid, in a way.

 

[pabloman]

Check out the Guitar ReRanch.

 

[pabloman]

There's also a company called Ohio Valley Nitro. These guys also sell on eBay. I'm not sure of anyone local to you that would stock something like this.

 

[rapfohl09]

Check out the Guitar ReRanch.

+1 on these guys, they make a great product. I did my first from scratch build in LPB from them and it worked pretty well. I say pretty well because I probably wouldn't use aerosol cans again. They seem like it should be great and easy, and for the most part they are, but make sure they you get enough of them, they don't have a whole lot of paint in those cans.

 

[Cagey]

It's funny - if you go to the Reranch site, they'll tell you one can is enough to do one guitar. I suppose if it's the kind of guitar you can hang on a charm bracelet or pin to your lapel, they'd be right. But, otherwise...

Then, $16/can? Really? For lacquer? What the hell else is in that can, liquid Cocaine?

I know it's mostly acetone, which is about $12/gal retail, so it's probably $2/gal or less to a jobber. Then, there's a lotta propellant, and maybe 30% empty space to mix in and hold pressure. So, what looks like a 24oz can is probably only 2oz of paint, 1/2 or more of which gets lost to overspray. So, you're supposed to paint a whole guitar with 1oz of paint? Assuming, of course, that you only need one coat.

What color is the sky in their world?

 

[bagman67]

Charging what the market will bear is no crime.  Look at it this way- in addition to the lacquer, folks.are also buying reasonable certainty that the product is what it purports to be. Folks aren't paying 16 bucks a can for lacquer.alone.  Thayre also paying for someone to remove doubt.  Reranch is selling convenience and comfort. 

 

[Patrick from Davis]

Acetone is about $20/gal.  It is pretty much fixed at that price across the board, unless you have an account with a chemical supply house, which takes a bit to get since they can sell you all kinds of goodies that regulatory folks get into a twist about.  The price is also going to be under more pressure as VOC restrictions become more stringent.

Reranch is kind of pricey.  That being said, the stuff they sell is of nice quality as well.  I did a burst with dyes, and can give you help on that, but not with rattle cans.  Spray cans and I have a very uneasy truce.  If you search the forum, =CB= has a bunch of posts on spray can lacquer finishing you might want to read.  Of course, Tonar is pretty much the default resource to ask about most finish related stuff, especially lacquer.

My personal experience is, it is quite a task.  The chemicals added to spray cans to make the lacquer behave properly (gloss finish, levelers, anti orange peel agents...) also make it cure slowly.  This means it is faster to do a bunch of thin coats.  This means that you burn through cans quicker for the clear coat.  This also means there are that many more chances to find a way to do something wrong.  The optimist in me loves this.  If you do it properly, it looks as if you could swim in it, so it is one of those incredible reward things.  Good luck
Patrick

 

[Cagey]

Charging what the market will bear is no crime.  Look at it this way- in addition to the lacquer, folks.are also buying reasonable certainty that the product is what it purports to be. Folks aren't paying 16 bucks a can for lacquer.alone.  Thayre also paying for someone to remove doubt.  Reranch is selling convenience and comfort. 

I understand and agree. I sort of went off on a tangent in that post. The point I meant to make was that you were never going to shoot a whole guitar with one spray can of pre-charged pre-mixed lacquer.

 

[B3Guy]

THe only place I saw where they say you can "shoot a whole guitar" is where they say that the Sunburst kit . . . one each of amber, black, red . . . plus a can of clear . . . will be sufficient to paint a body. That's four cans, which sounds reasonable to me. I'd probably go for two cans of clear? (maybe two of amber if I'm bursting front and back . . . If blacking the back, two of black?)

What is the exact order of operations . . . dummy proof version . . . for finishing a Warmoth body?

 

[Cagey]

Four or five cans does sound reasonable. Perhaps I misread the marketing hype.

 

[bagman67]

For a non-spray-can burst, check out this video demonstration of how to get a burst using aniline dyes:

http://www.finewoodworking.com/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesArticle.aspx?id=30182

He follows it up with a french polish using shellac, which is probably a more fragile finish than you'll want, but the dye blending technique is really cool.

 

[B3Guy]

don't want to mess with that "Create a burst with dyes" stuff, sorry. seems even more risky than the nitro. Here's a question, though. IS the amber supposed to be spray lacquer? I thought Fender usually did the amber as a dye. Reranch sells the amber in the kit as a spray, Stewmac says you use their dye. Which one is "how they used to do it"?

 

[Patrick from Davis]

Amber is both.  Depending on the wood, it will have or have no problems with dyes.  If it has trouble with even dyeing, then you use the amber tinted lacquer to make it an even color.  Birdseye is amber lacquered for instance.
Patrick

PS, on a figured top that takes dyes, creating a burst is quite easy, much easier than trying to control the spray on cans.  Well, it was for me.

 

[bagman67]

PS, on a figured top that takes dyes, creating a burst is quite easy, much easier than trying to control the spray on cans.  Well, it was for me.

I haven't tried a dyed burst yet, but getting this to look halfway decent was a mother-dragon using rattlecans.  Up close, you can see the atomization was less than perfect, but overall I'm satisfied.  It was, however, a huge pain.

 

[Cagey]

I just did a burst on Mahogany that came out pretty good - the atomization was perfect - but the width of the edge color ended up a lot wider than I'd planned. I think I need a different spray gun.

 

[jackthehack]

Tonar has multiple posts on how to do that finish in DIY, if you're going to try to do a burst for your first finish, stock up on sandpaper.

 

[Patrick from Davis]

As far as the steps to finish a body, it can change a bit depending on the wood, but this is the general concept.

Sanding sealer (I like Zinsser Wax Free Shellac Sanding Sealer, it has lots of uses)
Grain filling.  There are lots of options here, and some woods do not need it.  However, it is the part of the finishing process people loathe the most.
Wash coat of Nitro.  Put a layer down to stick to everything, and see if the grain fill is enough.
Burst with tinted Nitro, this is where the magic happens.  Or disaster, it can be a fickle step.
Clear with Nitro.  At this point, you need to have loads of patience.  Lots and lots of patience.

Between every nitro spray step, you are probably going to want to clean the body with naptha, and scuff it slightly with very high grit sand paper or abrasive cloth.  It makes for better adhering and melting coats into each other.  A little scuffing, followed by naptha to clean it off, goes a long ways.  After you have built up 8-12 coats of clear, depending on how you apply mind you, then you wait three weeks for it to harden up and level you it.  Then you do the glamour coats on that and wait for another three weeks.  Lightly sand it smooth with high grit sand paper on a block, and then start to polish.

This is primarily taken from =CB='s posts on using Deft semi gloss nitro.  They are very good to review.  You should have a lot of hurry up and wait time in the process, so you could almost commit them to memory.  Good luck, and post pictures.
Patrick

 

[B3Guy]

I'll probably go for a decent finished body on ebay. Nothing fancy, just something solid for $200 or a bit less. I'm thinking Jazzmaster at this point, actually . . . will a Warmoth Strat neck work on one of those suckers?

 

[pabloman]

Pick up this........... :dontknow:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2011-American-Fender-Stratocaster-Strat-NITRO-BODY-USA-/190582354241?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item2c5f97f141