Nitro lacquer drying issue- wrinkle/spider lines

[jpowers123456]

I recently finished my first build.  It is a Tele Deluxe mahogony body and neck finished with clear nitro over black grain filler. 
I did some earlier posting and finished it too fast my first go around.
This time, I waited nearly four weeks after my last coat and sanded/polished it to a nice finish. 
I live in San Diego and it is plenty warm and super dry in the winter months.
Then, a week later, I noticed what looks like wrinkle or spider web sized lines when I look at the finish under up to a light.
I am just flabergasted as everything was going so well.  What has happened? I tried to get a picture of it but that is difficult.
I sanded back the body a bit and did a new coat.  Most of it seemed to disappear but it persists in a spot or two. 
The neck looks real good unless you look real closely and then it is noticable.  Is this a common nitro problem?  Did I dry incorrectly? 
How do I remedy it?
The lnes/wrinkle seems to be below the surface and not on the top coat.  The top coat feels very smooth and there is a briliant shine. 
This was definetly not there prior to the final sand/polish.  I used 400 then 600, then a product called wool lube from Mohawk. 
The shine is perfect.  I was ready to do final assembly and get to enjoying this guitar. Please help.

 

[Patrick from Davis]

You have to level it and then shot a couple of coats, wait three weeks and then sand and polish it.  I tried to skip that last step, and all of the finish defects along the way showed up when I polished it.  Those last two or three coats after the first sanding/leveling really melt all of that away.  If there is cracks, then that is a different beast all together.  I know that you can relic nitro finishes by putting the body in a freezer, but I don't equate San Diego weather with a freezer.
Patrick

 

[blue313]

Unfortunately, I'm not a finishing expert.  However if you were to list out all your steps and the brands of everything you used, one of these guys should be able to figure something out.  :icon_thumright:

 

[jpowers123456]

Oh, I waited a week between each coat of nitro.
One other thing is that I did dry it outside on some days.
While it is usually in the 70s here it does get cool at night, occasionally down to mid 30'sOne coat of Vinyl Sealer
About five or six coats of McFadden black and then clear grain filler.  One week dry time between each coat.
About fifteen thin coats of nitro lacquer.
Sanded between every 3-5 coats.
Did a final leveling.
A couple more coats  then I let it dry nearly four weeks.
Lastly, I sanded with 330/400/600 using Mohawk Wool Lube
Lastly, I sanded with Mohawk Poly Buff, to a real nice gloss.
A couple of days later, I noticed the lines within the finish.  Looks like cracking or spider web.

 

[jpowers123456]

Oh, one other thing that may be of importance is that although San Diego is usually in the 70's it does get down to the 30s -40s in the evening this time of year.  My workshop is in the garage so it probably gets to the 40s in there at night, when it gets that cold.  Don't know if that would have impac at all.  It did not seem to bother it as I was doing each coat.  I have been very patient this time.  That is why I am so distressed with the fact that I now see these lones. They do look like the finish is relicing.  Like the beginning stages of a real old nitro finish you see.

 

[jpowers123456]

Sorry about the scetchy postings.  I cannot see my text in the text box when I am typing.  I do not knowwhat the issue is.

 

[Tonar8352]

With out seeing the finish and based on your description I would venture to guess that one of the following things has happened.

1. The black was too soft for the clear finish.  The best way to illustrate this is to think of what would happen if you laid a glass mirror on a bed mattress and walked on it.  The mattress would not support the hard glass and it would shatter. If your foundation is to soft and the topcoat to hard it will mirror crack.
2. The finish was too thick.  Some times if you get the finish on to thick it will crack.  Think of a mud puddle that starts to crack as the water evaporates.
3. It is possible that you got a bad batch of lacquer.  If the plasticizers are bad or there are not enough the finish will not have any flexibility and it will mirror crack.
4. Extreme temperatures will cause the surface to move to much and it will crack.  I do not think that you are experiencing this.

If it is cracking heavily there is not too much you can do but strip it and redo it.  You could try to give it a flow coat of retarder and see if that re-melts everything and gets it to flow together but I don think that will work.

 

[jackthehack]

"If it is cracking heavily there is not too much you can do but strip it and redo it."

Try selling it on eBay as having "a unique, antiqued checkered lacquer finish like a fine old vintage body" and use proceeds to buy another body to start over on.

 

[jpowers123456]

Well, I cannot say I am happy to hear your diagnoses of my problem, but I kind of had a feeling from the way it looked that I was in for bad news.  How about instead of trying to sell it I pretend that I was looking to do a relic look all along.  Just kidding.

It is all clear nitro over filler, which I truly believe was completely dry before I proceeded to topcoats.  I believe I have either too much lacquer or allowed the temperature to fluctuate too much, or both.  I notice the recommended method of doing a relic finish is to change the temperature radically in order to force weather checking.  I may have inadvertently done that by leaving it in my garage.  75 during the day then 40 ish at night.  Then on weekend days when I was hoe I would get it out in the sun to help the drying process.

Since most of the body seems to be okay I think I will get back to some sanding this weekend and try to get through the checking. I guess that is what it is called?  I will try the same with the neck, sand it back some then do a couple of coats to see if I might be able to pull it up as the nitro softens it all.  Is this worth a try?  

I will also not set it outside in the sunlight and will try keeping the temperature as stable as possible.  I saw a lot of pictures especially on jackthehack's postings of bodies being dried outside in the sunshine. Is there any risk in this?  Should I try keeping a stable temp?  I have a thinline swamp ash body with a birdseye top that I was going to do as my second project  so I do not want to repeat my mistakes.  I may be new to this but I definetly try to avoid repeating mistakes.  Life is too short to do the same stupid thing more than once.

Thanks for all of your help guys.  Any input you have is greatly appreciated.

 

[Keyser Soze]

I'm with Tonar on this one, without pics it sounds like some sort of physical incompatibility/change.  The ambient temperature range was not too far out for most lacquers that I've used (50 F seems to be the lower limit) But that direct sunlight seems like a less than good idea - there is really no way to know just how warm the sun exposed surface got, and that could mean a fair bit of wood movement was going on.

Before you start over try tincture of time, i.e. waiting.  Just put the piece someplace safe and fairly warm (but stable, say a closet) for a week or two and hope the plasticizers do their job.

If that fails you could try the reducer, but would probably also need to  re-sand after.  And that would likely risk sand throughs, meaning you'd also need to apply more topcoats, meaning at that point you might as well strip it and start over.

Bummer.

 

[Tonar8352]

Direct sunlight on fresh lacquer is not a good idea. Especially when black is involved.  It could be cold out but surface temperatures on black can get real high.  I have done readings on black painted surfaces that will go up to 183 degrees in full sunlight in 50-degree weather. 

Remember lacquers dry by evaporation and the solvents will leave the film depending on how hot (hot = fast) they are.  Acetone is gone in a heartbeat so it will almost cause a film to dry to fast. Regular lacquer thinner is still pretty fast so a light coat of 680 VOC lacquer mixed with regular thinner will be ready to recoat in 30 to 40 minutes.  Retarder slows the evaporation down a lot and helps flow and level.  Butyl Cellosolve is pure retarder and will really slow down the dry time if you use too much.  If I use Butyl I use a cap to about 16 ounces of blended finish.  I blend my lacquer with regular lacquer thinner and retarder because I like good flow and level, I don’t like any orange peel so when I get to wet sand stage I can start with 1000 grit wet and dry paper.  After my color coats are finished I usually shoot one coat every hour and only put 4 coats on in a day. Let it hang over night and then level sand it. Then I hit it with 4 more coats and let it hang for week.  I do my last level sand and then do one last flow coat and let it hang for 2 weeks before I wet sand and rub it out.  I put about 12 coats total on a guitar but that is heavily thinned so a lot less solids are left on the surface. 

I hang mine in the music room, which is in the garage.  It gets pretty cold in there in the winter and I have not had problems. I just add a little more retarder to my mix and wait longer between coats.

I think you should strip and redo your guitar.  I have had to strip guitars and redo them on a few occasions. I even striped one twice to get it right.  I learned more from my mistakes that any thing else.

 

[jackthehack]

" I saw a lot of pictures especially on jackthehack's postings of bodies being dried outside in the sunshine."

I have a 31 foot #2 jib sail off a boat rigged from trees across the deck in back to the house and any drying is actually done while hanging on a hook under this. I do lay them out in the sun to "cure" faster, but as Tonar points out if there is black/very dark colored dye(s)/toners involved depending on temp/humidity/etc. the body/neck CAN get too hot and it can heat the lacquer up to the point that it becomes a little "soft" and amongst other issues it is very easy to scratch/mar. Most of my drying is down under the sail in indirect light, but they always have to be pulled into direct light to take pictures so they come out better.

The exception to this is anything UNDER the lacquer coats, like grain filler, dye or stains, you can just bake the hell out of them to get them to dry quicker.

 

[jpowers123456]

Well thanks for all of the info.  I am going to try real hard today to get a usable picture posted.  Sounds like I may be back to the beginning again.  I agree that the mistakes are what you learn the most from.  Not being sure exactly what caused it I will just have to try to eliminate all of the things that may have contributed to the problem.  Let me try to get a picture that will illustrate the problem.

 

[Vdawg]

Tonars last post is all you need. For we who have done alot of finish, it's not a tough dicision to strip it off and shoot it again with a failure . I'm sure after all the time you've spent it's the last thing you want to do. Laq. is the most forgiving and quickist to work with AND to strip off. *also.. I've never used a vinyl sealer under Laq.* All that being said...it's in your hands now.

 

[jay4321]

As it happens, Tonar is just about to do some work on an ash Tele Deluxe nitro for me, but I do have plans for a mahogany one as well. Here are the mockups (Ignore the unusual pickguards, I decided against these):

I won't be able to take on any more projects right away, so I have all the time in the world to strip the finish and so on, and how many people have mahogany tele deluxe bodies just sitting around? We might be able to work something out, trade gear for it or whatever. Let me know

Jason

 

[Mor Paul]

As it happens, Tonar is just about to do some work on an ash Tele Deluxe nitro for me, but I do have plans for a mahogany one as well.

You have just become envied by about half the board. Probably more.

 

[jay4321]

You have just become envied by about half the board. Probably more.

The best part is that it's to be my first nitro anything.

 

[jpowers123456]

I appreciate your offer to buy me out of my mess.  I am actually committed to making it work.  I have a nice pickguard, pickups, and all of the hardware for it, and had it together and played it a couple of months back.  It sounded great.  I am actually making good progress with it. I sprayed some anti blush, let it dry a week, sanded it, a coat of nitro, and another shoot of nitro.  It appears to have pulled the spider lines, weather checking, whatever it is, to the surface.  It is looking better now, so far.  Anyway, thanks for the offer.

 

[jay4321]

Cool, I know where you're coming from, my project is actually to replace a messed up black TD body & poorly poly'd neck (I'll post pics tomorrow). Somehow I always wind up with good spare parts that I have to build a whole new guitar around.