Neck Insert Install: The Good and The Uguly.....

[BigSteve22]

So, I decided to try my hand at installing threaded inserts in the neck of my new Tele build. Results are fully functional, if not particularly pretty. Here's how it went...

First off, I used a cross slide vise mounted to my drill press so I could properly position the neck. Because the neck is tapered, it wouldn't clamp in the vise without some modification.

To offset the jaws to match the neck's taper, I used a few cardboard shims behind the jaw faces.

The vise itself was bolted to the drill press's work table.

I used an 1/8" twist drill bit, mounted backwards in the chuck, as an index pin to position the existing holes in alignment with the vertical axis of the quill. I used a square to check that the index was perpendicular to the plane of the mounting surface of the neck.

Once a mounting hole was in position, I used Forstner bits to drill a 3/8" Counter Bore, and then a 1/4" Blind Hole to accept the insert. I repeated the sequence of Index, Counter Bore, Drill, for each subsequent hole. Finally, I used a scrap of 80 grit abrasive paper wrapped around a 7/32" drill bit to slightly enlarge the the 1/4" holes. (That's because the actual bit size recommended by the insert manufacturer is 17/64", but I dare you to find a 17/64" Forstner bit!)

All went well, until the actual installation of the inserts. I used a piece of Red Oak to test the installation process. No problems what so ever, sucker went right in. So I figure: Hey, "I'm Golden". I put some Tap-Eze on the first inert, chucked the insertion tool in my trusty hand drill, and slowly started the installation. I soon realized that the Maple of the neck was a lot harder than the Oak, and that the only thing "Golden" was the shimmer of the soft brass insert. They went straight in, right up to the point where the slots cut into the rear of the insert's drive surface tore out! Thankfully, that was after clearing the plane of the mounting surface of the neck.

So, I ended up using a small grinding wheel in my Dremel tool to grind down the sharp edges left by the broken brass. As I said, they were already below the mounting surface of the neck, so no worries about functionality. (Yes, I did check after I was done!)

Thoughts for "Next Time"...
I realize that I left out one step that Kevin recommended: Use a 5/16-16 tap to thread the holes before installing the inserts. I only had the standard 5/16-18 on hand and I couldn't find an 16 pitch tap locally. Probably should have spent the money and ordered one. Oh well, maybe next time....

The body I have has a contoured heel, and I still have a couple of 8-32 x 1-1/2" screws left over from when Kevin worked on my JM neck. Now all I need to find is a couple of 1-3/4" S/S Oval Head machine screws. Next up, frets ends and check for level. Depending on how that works out, this neck might be making a trip to Detroit anyway.

:icon_jokercolor:

 

[rgand]

Thanks for sharing your experience with this. I'll be using the Warmoth neck from my Strat for my next build. I really should do that when it's off. I'll definitely cut the threads first.

 

[DangerousR6]

:headbang:

 

[dmraco]

Good experience and Tips.  YEs...using wood of similar hardness is key.  I has a similar experience with Brass and PurpleHeart.  that stuff is like drilling concrete.

 

[Logrinn]

Nicely done, Steve. Very nicely done. I think the end result is great. Good job, indeed.

 

[BigSteve22]

Good experience and Tips.  YEs...using wood of similar hardness is key.  I has a similar experience with Brass and PurpleHeart.  that stuff is like drilling concrete.

I was actually a little surprised at the difference. "Domestic Red Oak" is rated at 1260-1290 on the Janka scale, while "Hard North American Maple" is rated at 1450. I guess the breaking point of the inserts lies somewhere within that small difference. Maybe I'll pick up a few of the Stainless inserts and see if that goes any smoother. Either that, or just break down and buy the proper tap. Funny how I'll spend $200 on a bridge, but waffle around about $20.....  :icon_scratch:

 

[ByteFrenzy]

I wonder if you couldn't make your own tap from a correctly sized bolt. The real tap is going to be hardened because it's intended to put threads into holes in metal, not wood, so you don't really need that. Just use a hacksaw on a regular bolt to make some relief cuts and give you cutting edges, and a Dremel to open things up a bit more, and it should be OK to go. Even the bolt as is would cut threads exactly like your inserts did, but wouldn't deform because it's made of steel.

 

[dmraco]

Good experience and Tips.  YEs...using wood of similar hardness is key.  I has a similar experience with Brass and PurpleHeart.  that stuff is like drilling concrete.

I was actually a little surprised at the difference. "Domestic Red Oak" is rated at 1260-1290 on the Janka scale, while "Hard North American Maple" is rated at 1450. I guess the breaking point of the inserts lies somewhere within that small difference. Maybe I'll pick up a few of the Stainless inserts and see if that goes any smoother. Either that, or just break down and buy the proper tap. Funny how I'll spend $200 on a bridge, but waffle around about $20.....  :icon_scratch:

I never knew that existed.  Purple Heart was 1860.  Pretty cool

 

[Cagey]

Back when I first started doing inserts, I used to drive them in directly, too. It worked, but the results weren't always pretty. Plus, they often fought with me and I tore up a lotta inserts. Finally, I was always concerned that one day the wood would refuse to displace for the outer threads on the insert and I'd split a heel. Warmoth necks are a little too pricey to break before you even get a chance to play them, so some change was in order. Tapping the holes was the solution. The softest neck wood is hard enough to allow thread cutting, so that works out well.

As for the stainless inserts, I've used those and been less than thrilled. First, while they call them self-threading, the threads aren't cut the same way. They don't have a sharp edge to them like the brass ones do, they look more like the square threads you'd see on a leadscrew. So, they fight tooth, fang and claw going in. Then, I always use stainless machine screws, and there's a good chance they'll gall in the inserts, which defeats one of the purposes of using machine screws/inserts in the first place - the ability to take the neck on/off easily. Finally, they're dramatically more expensive and the only thing they bring to the party is corrosion resistance, which is a property neck fasteners don't even need.

 

[Cagey]

I wonder if you couldn't make your own tap from a correctly sized bolt.

Maybe if you were stranded on a desert island and had no choice. Taps aren't that expensive that you need to find bargain alternatives. Figure $10 or so, and maybe some shipping. On the other hand, Warmoth necks are pretty dear. I wouldn't want to risk tearing up the mounting holes on a $300-$700 neck for the sake of saving $10 or $20  :laughing7:

 

[BigSteve22]

As for the stainless inserts..... First, while they call them self-threading, the threads aren't cut the same way. They don't have a sharp edge to them like the brass ones do, they look more like the square threads you'd see on a leadscrew.

Are these the stainless inserts you used?:
https://www.ezlok.com/cds_catalog_product.php?id=400_008_cr
Catalog calls these Knife Thread(?).  ???

 

[stratamania]

FWIW I have some stainless inserts, not sure what brand they are but when tested without tapping it was not easy into maple and the trueness could not be assured. Conclusion, I would also use a tap if I get round to using them in a real neck.

 

[Cagey]

No, those look like they'd work. The ones I had came from McMaster-Carr.

 

[Dano]

BigSteve22:  Thanks for this post.  I am considering trying this and you probably just saved me some heartburn.  I just bought a tap to do the job.

Just curious if you have noticed any tonal difference due to a better connection between the neck and body?

I know this is a very old post, but hopefully you will see this.

 

[BigSteve22]

Just curious if you have noticed any tonal difference due to a better connection between the neck and body?

I have guitars with and without inserts, can't honestly say that I've noticed any tonal difference. Just makes installing and removing a neck an easier, and safer, job.

 

[Dano]

Just curious if you have noticed any tonal difference due to a better connection between the neck and body?

I have guitars with and without inserts, can't honestly say that I've noticed any tonal difference. Just makes installing and removing a neck an easier, and safer, job.

Yeah, I hear so much debate about set neck vs bolt / screw on neck and I honestly can't believe anyone can hear a difference.  Maybe my ears are not as finely tuned as other's. 

Thanks for the feedback and thanks again for the post!

 

[Walther]

Cool thread, thanks for posting & sharing!

Now idly wondering if W could offer this as a paid option straight off their workshop...

 

[rgand]

Cool thread, thanks for posting & sharing!

Now idly wondering if W could offer this as a paid option straight off their workshop...

I seem to recall someone posted about this on another thread and the answer was it was too labor intensive and too much of an upcharge to make it worthwhile.

 

[JPOL007]

Steve, Thanks for sharing this information. I'm planning to use inserts on my current build and this is exactly the kind of info I needed :icon_thumright: