My rosewood neck is warping....

[rightintheface]

Hey gang,
Don't post much these days, but thought I'd throw it out there: has anyone had an exotic neck warp? I have a four year old rosewood/ebony standard W (pro construction) that is starting to twist - the high e has normal relief, but the low E side has a hump around the fourth fret. Makes it pretty bloody annoying as it buzzes in the "cowboy chords" position. Pretty much impossible to play clean now as the buzz is obvious through an amp.

I'm pretty pissed off! This was a $400 custom neck  :sad1: This neck hasn't been abused, always taken care of it. Lemon oiled every couple of months as its dry here in Oz. thought I was pretty safe with an exotic. And of course warranty is out now...

Any thoughts people?

 

[stubhead]

Is the trussrod engaged? I mean with some tension on it? Since it's a pro, there's a double trussrod, two pieces of steel under tension on top of each other... I could possibly see it twisting to the point that the interior slot hits the double rod and stops there - in which case, if you've frets with some height to them,  leveling will mask the slight twist. That is weird, I'd never heard of it. I would ask Warmoth something, but I'm not sure what.... if it's buzzing on the bottom strings, it's twisting in a counter-clockwise direction (viewed from the headstock on down), correct? 

Necks can be steamed and straightened, but without identifying the cause, I'd assume it will twist back again, eventually. That hump is epidemic on old, single-rodded Fenders, it's even just called the Fender S-curve. And one of the larger reasons I distrust the provenance of many "vintage Fenders" immediately is because the neck isn't warped... it's as rare as an old SG or Les Paul that doesn't have a broken headstock!

 

[Cagey]

It may not even be the neck. Could be the frets themselves are sprouting a bit. Need to put some tools on it to really find out. A good straightedge and some feeler gauges would reveal quite a bit.

 

[rightintheface]

Put the straight edge on it yesterday (I work as a tech), definitely dips from the fourth fret on the Low E side. I see this alot on Chinese guitars (the bulk of my work) with timbers that haven't been dried correctly.

In terms of setup, the high e side actually has slightly too much relief, whereas the low side is almost starting to bow...

 

[Orpheo]

Give warmoth a call or email them. I am not sure how we can help out, on the forum, except for giving that piece of advice.

that being said: good luck. a twisting neck is always shitty.

 

[jackthehack]

I have Warmoth Pro necks of Indian Rosewood, Brazilian Rosewood, Wenge, Canary and Koa; never had one warp. For that matter, some are going on 8 years old and I've never had to re-adjust one since initial setup. I live in a climate where they all get fairly warm in the summer and fairly cold in winter. I have one vintage modern Indian Rosewood neck, it hasn't warped, but needs re-adjustment on an annual basis,

 

[rightintheface]

Thanks for the thoughts guys,
I think I'll take some measurements and some photos and flick warmoth an email. I'm devastated, this neck has been incredible til now!

 

[stubhead]

I have heard it said that "There's no such thing as a straight neck." Which, of course, is absolutely true - if you can just keep increasing your levels of magnification and the precision of your measuring tools by factors of ten, you will eventually be able to find SOME sort of kink or hump or bend, no matter that it might be 2 thousandths of the size of your high E. But obviously that silly stuff doesn't matter, especially  since you're getting aural and visible proof of the problem (no, it's NOT an "issue", it's a frikkin' PROBLEM).

My instincts are tingling that it's probably not a real swell idea to "straighten it" in the conventional, luthierin' way, steam the stuffing outta of it with bricks piled on it, clamps pulling and pushing (obviously, some sort of logically-intended force vectors here). I don't think the steam can get into rosewood in the first place, and then even if the heat gets it straight, but thence to return back to the same old environment it was in when it twisted in first place, ummm.

There is a two-year warranty hyarr:
http://www.warmoth.com/Ordering/Warranty.aspx

But of course that isn't applicable. Warmoth is what we used to refer to in high school daze as "good heads" but legally, it is a 4-year-old board. Made out of wood. One thing I see as unlikely is that it sat perfectly still for 4 years and then like all of a sudden took a big leap? Maybe, but that would infer that it got dropped, folded, spindled or mutilated "all of a sudden" too. It may be, or it may be that it stealthed up on ya, just to the point where you began measuring.

What to do? I am not much of a sugar coater, maybe up to but not quite including "Yes honey, those pants really do make your ass look enormous!" I can't help but think that once/if it warps all the way up to the limits imposed by two rods in a rectangular slot, it will stop. It just has to (as long as the rod has some tension on it). Since you're already hearing differential buzzing, I doubt that just leveling the frets will fix it. It might stay level for a while but the frets will look pretty weird - mis-matched heights to get a then-level playing surface?
It might work though - for a while. The next level of invasiveness would be to pull the frets*, then plane the fingerboard flat, then re-fret it. But that would be ridiculous until you're sure it's stopped twisting, of course. And the next thing would be to pull off the fretboard*. It's possible to pack the trussrod channel to purposely force the neck back towards flat, and/or fill and re-rout the channel so that the trussrod is pulling against the specific vector that's zooming you (right now your warp/hump is a combination of what your trussrod wants to do vs. what your neck wood wants to do). 

Those last two run smack-dab into the same "issue" and that is expense. That last one, jeez - you could probably get a round trip ticket to Brazil and the hatchet to cut down your own tree! Only fickle and filthy rich rock stars need apply....  Even on a $400 neck, it's possible to pay that much again for a "fix." And ~ * ~ I don't know for sure what glue Warmoth uses here, except it's not Elmers - so even these cures could be pretty much impossible. :sad1:

 

[rightintheface]

Hey stub,
Mate I hadn't noticed it significantly until I have it a much deserved setup. You know how it is, customer guitars first etc.

I think you're right, I'm just going to have to see what the woo decides to do and move from there. I'm not very keen on taking the neck apart, but I guess it depends on how bad it gets.

Thanks mate!

 

[Tony Ounsworth]

This neck hasn't been abused

Lemon oiled every couple of months

Perhaps I'm wrong, but these two statements are ringing small alarm bells. I always thought that Lemon Oil should be used sparingly, like once a year?

I appreciate that you're in a dry country, but I can't help wondering if such regular oiling has caused a problem...

 

[DavyDave53]

I've often thought about that.  The best I can come up with is that the natural oil, wax and resins in the raw neck should not be disturbed, or disturbed as little as possible. 

My current method is to wipe them down with a soft cloth after playing.  If the wood feels like its drying out or if there is dirt I need to remove, I rub Carnauba or Bees wax on and then after about a minute I wipe off most of the wax.  The dirt will lift off with wax.

Now, can lemon oil cause a neck to deform?  That's another question.  All I know is the Lemon Oil is pure marketing.  It's not oil from lemons.  It is mineral oil with a lemon scent.

 

[Cagey]

I haven't oiled a neck in over 40 years, and I've owned a bajillion necks. There's plenty of oil in your hands/fingers. So much so that you have to clean it off from time to time as it gunks up. I understand that people worry about the things, but it's a baseless concern.

 

[SustainerPlayer]

It's not oil from lemons.  It is mineral oil with a lemon scent.

^^This^^

And it's purpose is 99% cosmetic! It will not cause a neck to warp.

 

[Ace Flibble]

Yes, too much lemon oil (or whatever you wish to substitute for that term; there are plenty of synthetic and natural conditioning oils on the market), or conditioning performed too frequently, can damage the neck. If you're conditioning your neck more than once every 18 months, something is very wrong.
What tends to happen with an over-conditioned fretboard or neck is the wood swells, just as if you soaked it in water. Obviously, this can cause all kinds of problems, from warping to nuts, frets and inlays shifting, popping or getting pinched in so tight you'll no longer be able to remove them. Then there's the issue of discolouration, how much it will dry out your hands and the build up of oily overflow on the surface of the wood.

Lemon oil, synthetic mineral oil, the mysteriously unnamed stuff Dunlop sell, Gibsons' conditioner; you use it all the same. Apply two or three drops to a clean, inkless microfibre cloth and wipe it into the wood using soft, circular motions and hardly any pressure. Don't scrub at the wood. If you're treating a completely raw neck then you will want to use two or three drops for the fretboard and probably another three or four for the back of the neck and headstock. Once you've rubbed it in, leave it for six or seven minutes. Now take another clean microfibre cloth and give it a second rub down with no additional chemicals. This will remove the excess oil which hasn't settled into the wood.
This should be repeated whenever the wood appears to begin drying out. This usually occurs if the guitar has been left near a source of heat or in particularly dry conditions; it can also happen if the guitar has simply been left untouched for a very long time. Cold is rarely a cause, but it can do its own fair share of damage, too. You can tell the wood has begun drying out because rosewood (and similar species) will start to turn grey, while ebony will begin to show more obvious pores and grain. One oiling every 18-24 months is usually enough for rosewood, while ebony is best off left for 24-36months. No matter how long it has been since a fretboard or neck was last oiled, if the wood isn't actually showing signs of drying out, do not try to condition it. If a neck hasn't been touched in five years and still looks full of colour and tight-pored, great, no need to put anything on there.

If you have particularly dry skin, you may find you need to oil a neck a couple of months sooner. If you have particularly oily skin, you may find you don't need to oil it as often. Again, the conditions the guitar is kept in play the largest role; adjust your usage depending on the region you live in, the nature of your skin and how you treat the guitar generally.

I haven't oiled a neck in over 40 years, and I've owned a bajillion necks. There's plenty of oil in your hands/fingers.

Depends on your skin type. Plenty of people have very, very dry skin.

 

[Cederick]

Am I right in suspecting all oiled/naturally finished necks to warp more often than regular finishes?

I know a lot of Warwick bass players have problems with their necks

 

[Ace Flibble]

Depends on the wood, neck construction and the exact type of oil finish you're talking about. There are some oil finishes which do actually create a fully hard finish (though Warmoth's warranty does not recognise them as such, which is just bizarre). There are also some wood and construction combinations that simply should never warp unless treated really, really poorely. For example, an all-ebony neck with Warmoth's overblown 'pro' construction's truss rod will unlikely ever shift, regardless of how it's treated.

On the other hand, a maple neck with no more than a wax finish will stand a good chance of bending itself in knots within its first year.

As a general rule, the thicker and harder the finish is, the better the neck will be protected. The trade off is a thicker finish dampens vibrations more drastically.

Basses are particularly prone because of the length of the neck, the stronger and less even pull of the strings on the neck and how much less efffective the truss rod can be at that size, especially when you take into consideration how narrow many bass necks are, too. The raw wenge bass necks you hear people raving about are great for the first few months but are a complete nightmare to service and keep in top condition. These days, most 'raw' wenge necks you get on basses from big manufacturers actually will have a thin layer of sealer and satin clear coat, in order to give them half a chance of remaining stable.

Personally, I wouldn't advise using a raw or basic oiled/waxed neck on any bass, or on any guitar of 25'5" scale length or longer unless you're going to make sure the neck is very, very thick and wide, has a truss rod which is stronger than usual, and you'll be keeping string tension to a minimum and even across the width of the neck. I've simply seen too many raw necks get wrecked beyond reasonable repair. If you're talking about something like the all-rosewood Wide Fat profile neck on some PRS guitars, sure, those can work fine. I myself use a one-piece rosewood 24.75", 1.2"-thick neck on a Tele build and it doesn't even do the usual seasonal shifting. But a 34" scale, .8" thick piece of raw wenge or whatever, with higher tension on one side than the other, is just asking for trouble.

 

[Cederick]

Thanks, that makes it more clear for me.

And yeah, I HAVE thought about it being cool having a complete raw guitar, and even with little knowledge I was always thinking that I should have the 24" (I think) Conversion neck because it would be more stable. And that was even before I read everything about Warwick necks and stuff.

 

[stubhead]

Basses are particularly prone because of the length of the neck, the stronger and less even pull of the strings on the neck and how much less effective the truss rod can be at that size, especially when you take into consideration how narrow many bass necks are, too.

Fortunately my weird sense of humor keeps me from getting too cranked about it, but: Did you ever notice how, when the whole "vintage=GREAT!" thing started rolling (early 90's was when it peeped out from the rockstars and began creepy-crawling into middle-class wallets) the first, obvious ones were Les Pauls, then into the 335/345/355, then over to Fender Strats, then the Telecaster, then Jazzmaster, LP Jrs... It's really been only the past decade for the vintage vacuum cleaner to start in on 50's and 60's Fender basses. And the reason was - in 1990 and 2000 there weren't any old Fender basses without totally warped necks. Especially the Jazz basses - 1.5" neck and a single-action trussrod?

I was playing bass in Austin TX when the stirrings of vintageness got going, and it was just a given that if you happened upon an old Fender that worked OK (those old P-bass pickups unraveled and went microphonic all the time) you would need a new neck for it. There just weren't any vintage Fender basses in 1985. This is how Tobias and Spector and Warwick and Kubicki and Sadowski and Wahl n-n-n got their businesses going, because good bass players needed good basses. It wasn't because bass players were more adventurous, creative, filthy rich :icon_scratch:, open-minded than guitar players - huh? It was because every old Fender bass had pretzel neck.

Nowadays, of course, you can have a vintage Fender bass from any year you desire, all the custom colors are available, there are literally thousands of vintage Fender basses  - that granny found under the bed. It's pure coincidence that just about the time the counterfeiters had milked even Jaguars and Les Paul Jr's dry, and were looking at making Duo-Sonics and Melody Makers with less than total glee, that grannies all over the world simultaneously decided to look under the bed.

 

[rightintheface]

There's some really great info on this thread  :icon_thumright:

To clarify, I think in the 4-5 years I've had this neck I've only oiled the neck shaft twice, mmmmaybe three times. And only ever when it's appeared dry - easy to happen over here in Oz. the fretboard (macassar ebony) has probably been treated twice a year, but only ever lightly. Surely that would not be the cause of a neck warping?

 

[Re-Pete]

Are you in Australia? Where?
I had to have a neck reset on an acoustic guitar due to humidity last year, and since then I've been monitoring humidity in my home & the levels are frightening! 
I have bought a de-humidifier to attend to the excessive levels & thankfully it keeps the acoustic neck in top shape.
But when I took it to Melbourne for repairs in 2013, the change in humidity was dramatic (I live just north of Sydney in NSW) & the neck was nearly normal again. The change in the neck's posture made me look a goose to the repairer, but luckily he understood that in other regions, the humidity is much higher.
Seems Melbourne is dry but Sydney & Brisbane humid. Adelaide & Perth - BONE DRY! And I guess you wouldn't even consider owning an expensive acoustic in tropical areas like Townsville & Darwin.  :dontknow: