Jeez...Visited a music store

[KaiserSoze]

I love a Fender Strat as much as anyone and have owned a couple but $15-1600 seems, well, LAUGHABLE.  I guess I haven't shopped new guitars for a while.  Holy Sticker Shock Batman!!  I guess I'll look at the Les Pauls over here....HOLY *$^#!!!

 

[fdesalvo]

I'm never buying a factory made guitar again.  I've owned several $1700+ Gibsons and their QC is a f'ing joke - glue drips, stained binding, poor fretwork, uneven inlays, poor nut/saddle work, and the list goes on.

 

[Ace Flibble]

Prices on MIA guitars have gone up considerably over the last four years. You can blame the economic decline for that. Use dto be able to get a Fender American Deluxe Strat here for <£1000 and Am Standards for aorudn the £750 mark. Now the American Specials and even some of the MIM guitars are £750-£800, the Standards are a bit over a grand and the Deluxe are well over that. Gibson LP Classics and similar standard production models were under a grand too, now they're closer (or even over) two grand.

But it's understandable. As I said, the economy dive that America (and by proxy, the rest of the western world) took has made even the most basic of materials cost three, even four times as much as they did four years ago. On top of that production has generally slowed down across all industries, while demand hasn't actually shifted all that much.

Bear in mind too that even the ''expensive'' electric guitars generally cost less than the equivalent level other instrument. You think it sucks that a Fender or Gibson over a grand doesn't meet expectations and that you have to spend three to four grand on a Custom Shop guitar to get something flawless? Try looking at the prices of a top-quality saxophone or cello.

Also remember that we Warmoth users get rather spoiled on price tags. We're only paying for the basic materials and minimal labour, most of which is kept even cheaper by using set options cut and shaped by machine, and we're buying direct from the manufacturer. When you look at buying a compete guitar off the shelf you're buying from a shop, who is buying from a distributor who has a deal with the manufacturer, who has to pay a much larger workforce and large factories - often in multiple countries. It's easy to say "why should I pay £2000 for a Gibson Les Paul Standard when I can get the same spec with more customisation for half the price via Warmoth!?", but the fact is they're not the same spec. They're not using the same parts, they haven't been made in the ame way. The Warmoth build is so much cheaper because we're not having to pay a huge workforce to build the guitar, we're not paying for nitro finishes and set necks and twenty times as many royalty and patent fees.

So yes, it does suck when you go into a store and see the price tags. But it's not unfair, or ridiculous. It's completely understandable and justifiable, and even if a shop did try to completely gouge you you're still not going to be paying half as much as people who play other instruments do.

 

[animal control]

In 1970 I bought a new strat with case for $600. A gigging player at the time, I didn't have $600 and the store financed it for me. I had no opinion on whether or not prices were fair in those days, it was a tool of the trade. Quality was good, no complaints.

So taking into account inflation and cost of living increases, what would that be in today's dollars, assuming the quality was the same? I'm too dim to figure it out but I'll bet it's a lot.

I have been building Warmoths mostly for the quality. I'm paying a lot more than I would for parts coming out of a far east sweatshop but I don't mind paying for quality and to keep talented workers employed.

All in all I think I've been getting great deals.

 

[KaiserSoze]

I can see Ace's point a bit, as I paid over five grand for my daughter's violin and know I could have paid five times that for an instrument.

Still, I guess I must be getting old (or cheap) to think that $1500 for a guitar better get me something with great build quality and perfect fretwork.  It sucks to buy anything new that needs work as soon as you get it home.

 

[SlartiBartfast]

In 1970 I bought a new strat with case for $600. A gigging player at the time, I didn't have $600 and the store financed it for me. I had no opinion on whether or not prices were fair in those days, it was a tool of the trade. Quality was good, no complaints.

So taking into account inflation and cost of living increases, what would that be in today's dollars, assuming the quality was the same? I'm too dim to figure it out but I'll bet it's a lot.

I have been building Warmoths mostly for the quality. I'm paying a lot more than I would for parts coming out of a far east sweatshop but I don't mind paying for quality and to keep talented workers employed.

All in all I think I've been getting great deals.

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, $600 in 1970 is equal to $3,520.56 today. In other words, today's guitars are an absolute STEAL when you look at it like that. Here's where I got the numbers: http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm

 

[Johnny]

Every electric that I own (4 total), I've paid over $1000 for; including my Warmoth which cost around $1400.  I don't think the prices are too high, I just wish they weren't as high as they are.  :icon_smile:

I might add, I'm not at all unhappy with what my Warmoth cost me.  It's become my favorite.  For what I paid, I don't think I could have bought another instrument of this quality!!!

 

[Cagey]

So taking into account inflation and cost of living increases, what would that be in today's dollars, assuming the quality was the same? I'm too dim to figure it out but I'll bet it's a lot.

Here's another inflation calculator that adds another detail to the picture - what you should expect to pay for the exact same item. So, while $600 in 1970 would be the equivalent of ~$3330 today, goods that cost $600 should only cost about $103 today. The reason for that is technology, productivity and origin have all improved dramatically since then.

For instance, with guitars they were working with sharpened bones, flint knives and pigments ground from flowers back then, so materials were more expensive and building a guitar was much more time/labor intensive. Today, they make paint out of chemical magic and cut wood with computers so they can knock 'em out in no time flat for very little money. At least, most countries can. It's tough in the US because everybody wants to make $500/hr to do the simplest things.

 

[SlartiBartfast]

So taking into account inflation and cost of living increases, what would that be in today's dollars, assuming the quality was the same? I'm too dim to figure it out but I'll bet it's a lot.

Here's another inflation calculator that adds another detail to the picture - what you should expect to pay for the exact same item. So, while $600 in 1970 would be the equivalent of ~$3330 today, goods that cost $600 should only cost about $103 today. The reason for that is technology, productivity and origin have all improved dramatically since then.

For instance, with guitars they were working with sharpened bones, flint knives and pigments ground from flowers back then, so materials were more expensive and building a guitar was much more time/labor intensive. Today, they make paint out of chemical magic and cut wood with computers so they can knock 'em out in no time flat for very little money. At least, most countries can. It's tough in the US because everybody wants to make $500/hr to do the simplest things.

Not to be a douche, but you're a little confused about those numbers. If you go back to that site, the numbers you're quoting actually say that something that costs $600 today would cost $103 in 1970. All your other points are valid, though.

 

[Johnny]

It's tough in the US because everybody wants to make $500/hr to do the simplest things.

You can count me in that list!

 

[Jusatele]

great site
I did a bit of figuring
My 2003 strat is right in line with current cost
My 63 tele should cost over 2 grand to buy today but it is actually just around a grand for a new Tele
My 2002 PRS custom 22 should cost 4 grnd today but is actually the same price.

HUMM seems things are coming down in price

 

[Strat Avenger]

I don't care what anyone says; Gibsons are OVER-PRICED...period.

 

[Hbom]

I think it was in the fall of 8 or 9, when the US economy was really starting to tank,
Gibson took 25% across the board price hikes. Fender followed them immediately.
It's one of the major reasons I will never buy a new F or G again.
2. Quality.
3. Warmoth.

 

[Cagey]

Not to be a douche, but you're a little confused about those numbers. If you go back to that site, the numbers you're quoting actually say that something that costs $600 today would cost $103 in 1970. All your other points are valid, though.

Sorry about that. You're right. I went back and looked, and I misinterpreted what they were saying. It didn't do a double-take because there are a lot of situations where what I said is true.

 

[Cagey]

I don't care what anyone says; Gibsons are OVER-PRICED...period.

Dramatically so. Cover up the headstocks and set any Gibson Les Paul next to anything from Korea, and you'd pick the Korean fiddle first without even knowing the price. Then you find out they're not just less expensive, it's by an order of magnitude. I mean, it's not even funny. I understand they work for a less money over there, but come on!

 

[Ace Flibble]

I think it was in the fall of 8 or 9, when the US economy was really starting to tank,
Gibson took 25% across the board price hikes. Fender followed them immediately.
It's one of the major reasons I will never buy a new F or G again.

That's hardly something you can hold against them. As I said before, you can thank the crippled economy for that. Both companies have been doing much worse these last few years and if they (or rather, the shops; Fender don't set their prices, their distributors do) still had their guitars at their old prices, there's a good chance they'd be in serious trouble by now. When economies go to hell, luxury brands like this have to either hike prices and hope their profits stabilise or they can go down with the ship.

I don't care what anyone says; Gibsons are OVER-PRICED...period.

They really aren't, for the reasons I mentioned earlier. Their price is reflected in the techniques and materials they use, and they're not a company that rips off their employees. They have some of the best, most experienced builders in the world and a lot of what you're paying is for their experience and craftsmanship, at least in terms of the Custom Shop guitars. If you want them priced more ''fairly'', convince American workers to work for Chinese-level wages.

I'll also say that of the hundreds of Gibsons I've played, only a small minority have really had actual, objective flaws (of particular note are the Axcess guitars - of the three I've tried, all of them had the Floyd installed very poorly). The vast majority of the ''bad'' ones were simply set up poorly, or at their core simply weren't a fitting spec for me. But when you find the one that's right for you, absolutely nothing will beat it. And I do mean nothing. I say that as someone who handles real 50s and 60s guitars on a daily basis, who has handled fifteen-grand PRS guitars and one-off Mayones instruments and some of the crazy things the ESP Custom Shop puts out. I wouldn't trust the Gibson Custom Shop to make a great Telecaster or a good banjo or a super-Strat of course, but when it comes to Les Pauls, SGs, Explorers and the like, they are absolutely unbeatable, at least in terms of objective quality even if the spec doesn't suit you.

Of course, you may have to play twenty (or in my case, fifty) before you find one that fits you right, but when you do it's really something quite special.

If I'm honest, it really shocks and saddens me how entitled and unrealistically demanding so many guitar players are.  Everything has to be perfect, everything has to be custom, everything must be made with the latest cutting-edge techniques but also pure vintage, everything has to be made in America and everything has to cost pocket money. You want stuff to be affordable? Buy mass-produced Chinese stuff. Want everything to be perfect? You gotta pay a premium for a top luthier to make it by hand. Think a great guitar costs too much? Take a look at how much a really nice piano costs, or the inflated costs of sports cars. I wish we lived in a world where everyone could have a 1-piece body and AAAAA flame maple and handwound pickups for £200 hardcase included. I wish we lived in a world where I could buy an Aston Martin DB9 after an honest days' work. I wish we lived in a world where Kate Beckinsale kept my bed warm.
Sadly, the world we live in isn't that comfortable. Guitars like MIA Fenders and Gibsons are a luxury. They're going to cost a lot more than lower-quality equivalents and you can't expect them to become casually affordable in the middle of a recession. Don't complain about how ''expensive'' Gibsons and Fenders are, just marvel at how cheap Warmoth are, how cheap Korean and Chinese and Indonesian production is and how much those guys are improving. It's not that one group is ripping you off, it's that the other is a ridiculous bargain.

I don't care what anyone says; Gibsons are OVER-PRICED...period.

Dramatically so. Cover up the headstocks and set any Gibson Les Paul next to anything from Korea, and you'd pick the Korean fiddle first without even knowing the price. Then you find out they're not just less expensive, it's by an order of magnitude. I mean, it's not even funny. I understand they work for a less money over there, but come on!

As someone who can swivel his chair around right now and pick up both a Gibson and a MIK Epiphone, as well as several other MIK guitars, I can safely say no. Absolutely not. I'm happy with my MIK guitars - I wouldn't have six of them and a seventh on order if I wasn't - but they struggle to stack up to MIJs and low-level production MIAs, let alone the mid-range MIAs (and they don't hold a candle to the high-end MIAs).

 

[Cagey]

I probably shouldn't have been so generic as to say "any Korean guitar". I'm thinking of the Agile products. There is no way I'd take a $3,500 Gibson Les Paul Custom over a $450 Agile 3100. If you haven't seen/played one of those, you're missing out. They're a superb instrument.

Epiphone? Phbbbt. They're a Gibson company. If you like American Gibsons, I'm not surprised you'd find their Korean knock-offs acceptable.

 

[SlartiBartfast]

Sorry about that. You're right. I went back and looked, and I misinterpreted what they were saying. It didn't do a double-take because there are a lot of situations where what I said is true.

No reason to be sorry, my good man. I was just being a know-it-all. Like I said in my post, what you said in the post was completely valid. All those available technologies should make guitars more affordable today than in 1970. The only thing that would make them more expensive would be:

1.) Increased demand for guitars (EVERY emo kid "plays" guitar these days)
2.) Less available wood due to depleted resources. Seen any Brazilian Rosewood lately? Exactly.

BUT, I digress. You're right at the other points.  ccasion14:

 

[Strat Avenger]

'Sorry, I ain't buyin' it. Gibsons were ridiculously priced before the economy went South. High prices can be justified if the quality is there to reflect it, but in Gibson's case, it is not.

 

[Corey P.]

I haven't played a new off-the-rack Gibson I've been happy with since I began having a clue about what actually made a guitar play well (so honestly a pretty recent period of time) even if the materials are good, the setup and details and hardware can often be lacking, particularly at the "working man's" price point; that's not a rarity across the board, though, very few new guitars don't need to be tweaked to some degree, even if simply to suit your personal quirks and preferences.  I'm sure their custom shop work is strong, but why pay a premium for the Gibson name when the same money could probably get you two or more amazing guitars from a niche builder...

I do generally find Fenders, cost-wise, pretty reasonable for what the parts alone would cost vs. the cost of the guitar, not that I can reconcile $1k for a Strat even if I know it'd cost roughly the same to build a Warmoth/USACG guitar (though the customization you get makes the parallel cost better bang for your buck so to speak in terms of quality, sadly not resale value).  They're still plenty imperfect out of the factory, but it's a much different price point and easier to reconcile.

Obviously I think we all appreciate the benefits of Warmoth and companies like them, and that's why we're here - you pay somewhat parallel costs to a USA Fender but get upgraded hardware, electronics, materials, a different standard of quality control, etc.

I think a convenient comparison are micro vs. macro breweries vs. home brewing - you can get something you're really happy with from each and whether the cost and rewards are justified is decided by your personal taste/satisfaction.  Exotic woods are totally the hops of this analogy.

ccasion14: