I wanted a Warmoth, I will take a gibson?

[-CB-]

yes spyder, but when gibson is asking 3500 for a LP you would expect the setup to be perfect

1.  No manufacturer can do a perfect setup - since there is no definition of perfect setup - and more so, because of the environmental changes that are going to take place between factory, warehouse, shipping, another warehouse, display, and you finally purchasing it.  Don't blame the factories for that.

2.  If you buy from a small shop - many times you'll get the service along with the purchase.  If you buy from the buck-over-minimum-wage emozit at the big box place, or buy on-line, don't expect the service.   

3.  Setting up a guitar should be within the scope of skills of every guitar player

4.  There are EXCELLENT online dealers, who provide a price well well below the "online" big box stores - which are held to "minimum advertised pricing" as a way to stifle competition and keep profits up.  All the big boxes guarantee the lowest price.  Read the fine print - "advertised price".  Ever wonder why they're all pretty much the same "lowest price".  Thats why.  There is one Gibson dealer I know of, who is the #2 volume dealer for Gibson, and he does not have a big splashy website, just a small webpage that asks you to call for pricing.  Amazingly.... it works for him, because he has great online, and phone service.

5.  If you buy a guitar and its really bad, send it back.

1. I expect a guitar to be setup and not needing an intonation when it is delivered to me, I will not accept it any other way
2. another reason to buy from shops that do appreciate your business and not mega stores trying to force you to accept shite for service\
3. That is the most rediculous thing I have ever heard, so should we also be required to be able to carve a new nut or solder in new pups?
4.Unfortunately most of the big boxed corporate stores do notoffer service
5.I have, numerous times over such as it was not even intoned and they would not pay to have that done.

a fool and his money is soon parted, and they are trying to make you part with it easier all the time. Buying from a place that treats you like shite instead of the guy who bends over backwards for your business is asking to be ripped off.

Your answer is ridiculous.  Carving a new nut, or soldering in new pickups are not part of a setup.  A setup is the basic adjustment of the instrument.  Its outlined right there in the instruction books, and on-line, and in many other books available about guitars.  Adjusting the bridge and truss rod are not rocket surgery, and I still believe that if you know enough to say "this setup is bad", then you ought to know enough to correct the situation.  There is no magic involved, no voodoo, and no blood sacrifices (except maybe if you prick yer little finger with a string end).  There are folks who can not do basic things.  I know lady who rented a house, and she literally cannot change a light bulb on her own.  She pays an electrician to come in every few months to fix all her electric problems.  Easy money.  There's the fool and his money scenario.

 

[Jusatele]

CB, I know guys who would cut their fingers off if given a basic tool box of tools, not everyone will be able to do such an easy thing as setting the intonation, which can be done with a simple screwdriver, It is saying that anyone who owns a car should be able to check their oil, but most cannot or even know it should be checked at each fill up
face it, mechanic ability is not for every one even if it is easy to you

 

[-CB-]

Quality control is about trends and statistics. If you have a guitar in the hand that you love, it doesn't really matter that the rest of the guitars in the bushes meet 6 sigma production goals or not.  Yes Gibson is being run by boneheads. Yes their stuff is all over the place and over priced.  But if you find THE guitar, and you feel it's a good price, by all means buy it.

And btw - here's how its going to go down. Gibson will eventually go under because its being run by boneheads, and makers of high priced toys do not fare well during tough times, especially if they're run by boneheads. The company will be sold. This will be yet another chapter. CBS. Norlin. Thomas Organ. etc... People will badmouth current era Gibson stuff while they buy it up. Wait for 20 years to pass and now all of a sudden WHAM - it will become respectable and collectible. Someone will still be selling Gibson branded products for a very long time. Even if it happens to be Ibanez or Hyundai for a couple years.

you forgot that they market the product so well that we will buy it because they make us want it. Just look at Harley Davivson, they get over 10 grand for motorcycles that are less than 60 horse power, handle like they were engineered in 1939, oh wait, they were, and break down once a week. while you can buy a Japeneese bike for 7 grand that has over 100 horses, has no mechanical issues and runs like a sewing machine. But then that is marketing. And Gibson markets those guitars the same way so they will sell

Harley only makes one bike less than sixty horsepower, and its less than ten thousand dollars.  Anyway, its not about horsepower, its about torque with those engines.   There are very few mechanical issues on the HD's, unless of course you look at bikes with forty thousand miles and more.   My first Harley got sold at 93,000 plus miles.  I was the original owner, and it ran like a top.  I had lots of tires and chains.  I did snap a clutch actuator someplace between 20-25 thousand.  After that smooth sailing.  The current Harley had a rough early life, due to owner "mods" done very poorly.  I fully expect it, now corrected back to factory configuration, to last a very long time.  They're not racing bikes, they're V-twins, and they still do the best job in the V-twin business, and when they do need service, nothing is easier to fix.  Sort of like the "Fender" of the motorcycle biz!

 

[-CB-]

Everyone check the oil, yes.  Fill it, yes.  Change it, no.
Just like tire pressure - check and fill, yes, but change, no.

Yah... your right.  Some folks cant change strings themselves. I knew a guy like that.  Brings his axes in every couple of months for string changes and setups.  Costs him about $300 to do for six guitars.  Easy money.  A fool and his money.  But he's got it. 

 

[swarfrat]

Just look at Harley Davivson, they get over 10 grand for motorcycles that are less than 60 horse power, handle like they were engineered in 1939, oh wait, they were, and break down once a week. while you can buy a Japeneese bike for 7 grand that has over 100 horses, has no mechanical issues and runs like a sewing machine. But then that is marketing. And Gibson markets those guitars the same way so they will sell

No argument there, you can buy a KLR for $2.5k used, only has 40hp, but it will climb trees, run forever, wheelie over top of all the harley's parked at the end of the parking lot and has the "Rabid Cult Internet Fanclub".

 

[Jusatele]

nah, Harley is selling a bike they designed 70 years ago, and that is about all, and guys are standing in line to buy one because they are trying to look like a bad ass who has a life
even on their website they list the demographic as late 40s making 80 thousand a year, that is not some kid wanting a dependable ride, that is a RUB who can afford a bike that you need tow insurance to take out for the weekend. They do not try to compete in the  sportsbike category because they do not know how. Buell was bought out by Harley after Erick made it a success and you would think the marketing ability of Harley would make it a major player instead of almost disappearing. Harley has had to outsource the engine design and development of the Vrod, and had to hire a few engine engineers to redo the Evo into the generation they use now. They do not engineer motors, they style bikes. With little improvement to the mechanics coming down the line so the basis of the bike falls further and further behind the worlds mechanical advancement.
However that is what their audience wants, and pays so dearly for. They are a huge success and you only have to go look at the guys paying 25000 dollars for a full dressed bike to know that the fool and his money is soon parted is not about the guy buying a much needed car, but the guy trying to act 17 again. I can buy a nice car for 25000 instead of a 2 seater motorcycle that I have to drive under a roof during the rain.
But that reinforces the marketing Gibson is doing with their line of guitars and why they will still be around in 30 years, they are selling mystic not innovation.  And that demands a huge price tag. I can buy a Harley look alike Kawasaki for 1/2 of what the Harley will sell for if I will accept the Fact it is not as desirable as the Harley, but if you look at the bike we are using more modern technology and materials in the Vtwin Kawasaki, have a higher horsepower with a more fuel efficient engine of lesser CC because they do employ engineers.

We do not have to accept the forced fed propaganda marketing agencies push out. We are allowed to think like individuals, we are here at a Warmoth owned website, not to save money on guitar parts, but because we want better product the way we want it. We are those who look at a Gibson and say it is unacceptable what they offer, and we will go elsewhere.
As we should do when a guitar selling merchant tells us we need to pay for a setup when we just bought a guitar, would you allow Ford to sell you a brand new car that was miss firing?
that would be a fool and his money, such as is accepting a new instrument that is not in perfect playing condition, it is unacceptable for us to have to pay for a setup of a brand new guitar and I refuse to. As I walk out the door with my money still in my pocket they can decide that "OK we will just screw the next guy, there is a fool born every minute" if you want to be that fool so be it, I am not.

MY line of thought here, and useing Gibson, Ford, Harley and who knows who else is that if you give up and let them walk over you then you deserve it, but if you stand up and complain they do take notice, it is just a matter of numbers of which is more. If Sam Ash advertised a free setup with whatever gauge and brand of strings you wanted for free with the purchase of any Fender Guitar, how long till Guitar Center would have to answer?  But as long as they are all silent then they save the 1/2 hour labor of restringing a guitar and setting the bridge and intonation.

We have created this by not complaining, refuse the product and walk out. there are plenty of places that will cater to your business.

 

[swarfrat]

Setup is more like saying Ford should adjust the seats for you. Yes, however the guitar is delivered, it should be intonated. But setup is so personal, expecting the customer to tailor it to their liking is fine with me.

 

[Jusatele]

Everyone check the oil, yes.  Fill it, yes.  Change it, no.
Just like tire pressure - check and fill, yes, but change, no.

Yah... your right.  Some folks cant change strings themselves. I knew a guy like that.  Brings his axes in every couple of months for string changes and setups.  Costs him about $300 to do for six guitars.  Easy money.  A fool and his money.  But he's got it. 

next time you fill up. watch for 10minutes and post how many customers  got gas, and how many of them checked the oil or the air in the tires. If it were not for oil pressure lights, and NEWER cars having air pressure lights it would not get checked. And I know men who have to have others check their oil. Sadly We both think they all should be able to but they do not.

I have enjoyed the banter, and note your responses, as always mine are my opinions, and we all know about those.

 

[Superlizard]

Gotta say it again:

Ultimately, we control the market by the purchase decisions that we make; not the companies.  Get enough
stupid people shelling out thousands for subpar crap just because of the brand name, and next thing you know the
companies have us all by the balls...

 

[-CB-]

Ya know.... I've ridden in my time (considerable)  Harley, Puch, Triumph, Honda, Yamaha, Harley.... and Harley.  My first bike was an Italian made HD!  I was 8 years old!  50cc's of 8 year old badass... gotta tell ya.

Anyone who can give such an eloquent verbal diatribe against Harley.... well... I mean it stands on its own merits! 

As far as the Kawa looking like the HD, apart from two wheels, Vtwin engine and two gas caps... there's little similarity.

The problem I have with the imports - is that they just dont keep making them the same way, then you're SOL for parts after a few years. 

This whole thing reminds me of the 45 vs 9 arguments.  Was a time when the politicos were all touting and spouting about the need to replace the "antique" .45 cartridge with the "modern" 9mm.... until they took a look and found out the 9 outdates the 45 by a number of years. 

I guess.... words are like money.  Fools part with both pretty easily.  Hey I'm gonna make up a patch that says that... put it on my vest!  What inspiration... I love this place!

 

[Jusatele]

Oh, I am a Moto Guzzi fan, am running a griso 1100 right now.
I only chose harley because they seem to be able to market a idea that if you refuse to evolve you are making something that is desiable. that is like saying you have reintroduced the 1974 pinto to the market, all the same styling, suspension and the same motor, just the way you had it in high school and your father had it before you. We even market clothes, wallets, and a g string for your wife that all say pinto on them. and they all look like they didi in 1974.
kinda draws a new line on it. If harley wanted to evolve why not make a 90 degree V twin, after all that is one of the worlds most balanced engines, the current offereing by Harley is not balanced at all.
It is not Harley, it is the mindset of the marketing and the way guys eat it up, they can continue to make a terribly overpriced inferior product because they have a core audience that refuses to look elsewhere. They shop with blinders on going out to buy a HArley, not a motorcycle. It is Marketing genius.
which Gibson seems to be emulating, they have always been good so they must be the best now, and guys are eating it up like candy. At least Fender says it is a Squier, or a MIJ,or a AM Standard/deluxe,or a custom shop. And you know the difference. However some of the MIJ stuff I see now is top notch.

 

[jay4321]

Yeah I don't agree with the idea that playing guitar should necessarily make you your own tech.

Many people drive cars, but can't change a tire. Nearly everyone uses computers but the majority never learn how anything under the hood works. Others hire painters when they need to repaint their kitchen, or plumbers to change a toilet, or kids to come mow their lawn for them. Maybe you brought home dinner instead of cooking for yourself at some point? 

The point is that some people just prefer being end-users, that doesn't make them fools. It's entirely possible that their time is worth more in other pursuits than yours might be.

 

[jay4321]

I'm not normally one to quote poker players as I spend a lot of time around them, but Doyle Brunson explains the concept pretty well I think:

There is nothing wrong with recreational players. Everyone plays poker for different reasons and recreational players have every right to play how they want to. Never ridicule a player for making a bad play or doing something that you think is obviously wrong. Most of the time these players have other occupations that they are very good at. A doctor would never yell at you for thinking a chest pain was a heart attack, even if it was obvious to him that it was just indigestion.

 

[-CB-]

I'm just saying there's a difference between basic adjustments and replacing or modifying or changing parts.  Some folks think that its all too complex for them.  Some dont, and do well.  Others give it a try and succeed most times, but leave the problematic guitar to "the tech".

If you change string gauges - it does effect both intonation, and relief on the neck.  Folks change string gauges all the time, have little idea what the consequences are, either like or dont like the result based on how the guitar was originally adjusted.... then they work the problem backwards, saying the guitar likes this gauge or that gauge, when really, it ought to be the other way round - where the strings are chosen for tone and how they play (or maybe how they wear), and then you adjust a little to optimize the instrument for the strings.

Then again, in todays world, black is white, white is black, the internet is reality, and reality is only where you stuff your pie hole, or lay your head.

 

[Jusatele]

one more point CB, most guys do not have an ear trained to know their guitar is out of intonation

 

[SpiderDeluxe]

truss rod, string height, and intonation are not super complicated adjustments.  It did take a bit of reading and tinkering to figure it out, though.  I do a lot of recording, and correct intonation is huge there.  No matter how perfectly you tune before each take, you'll still be out the further up the neck you go, which translates to out of tune recordings.  As for not being able to tell by ear, I use a tuner that measures cents.  

as was said, a change in strings will throw everything out of wack.  I like playing flatwound 10's, which have way higher string tension than roundwound strings.  When you put a higher tension string on a guitar that was using 9's or something, the neck will bend and your intonation will be awful.  That doesn't mean you should take them off; they might give you the sound/feel that works best for you.  If you have money to take it to a tech, that's fine.  Some ability to adjust things on your own can be a great asset, especially as a broke student

I had a tech writing class a few years ago and made a page with basic instructions to set up a guitar.  Please ignore slight mistakes, it gets the job done. URL:  http://www.setupyourguitar.com

 

[Jusatele]

weather you can or cannot is really not the issue, the issue is this:
I remember when I bought a guitar in the early 70s, they asked me what strings I wanted and brought it to the back and set it up for me, when I got it back the action was light, the strings were intonated and in the gauge I wanted. every guitar I ever bought till the day I walked into GC this was the norm, In 2003 I was handing the guy my money for a American strat, not a cheap guitar and said I wanted 9s and would pickup the guitar the next day. He told me it would cost X amount for a set up. I asked him WHAT? and he insisted I had to pay to get the guitar set up, I asked for my money back and was walking out when some department manager came over and wanted to argue with me that I was wrong in asking for a set up for free, I used the analogy that Ford would not sell me a Car that was missing why should I have to accept a guitar from GC that was out of intonation. Well about then the manager sent the guitar back to the back and told me it was being handled would I please come back to the counter and pay for the guitar. I think he was embarrassed so many guys were listening to me and agreeing.
Now, I do not know how many guys let them be taken by this, but it must be a lot for a salesman to think it was normal. I can go to many shops in the LA area where they want me to buy from them and will set up a guitar how I want it to be set up.
Now I can set my action, I can tune the intonation, but that is not the issue. Do you go to a restaurant and have to pay extra for forks? Should you not expect forks so you can eat? How many of us could bring our own forks? do they deliver forks to the table that need to be cleaned, after all we should be able to clean our own forks, it is not hard.
So, do we accept it? or do we go elsewhere? Sadly, to save a few dollars it seems we are going to end up accepting it. The more guys who accept it the more pressure there is on everyone else to do the same.

 

[Cagey]

I think you guys may be talking about two different things. To expect a retailer to set an instrument up upon sale is one thing, knowing how to set up an instrument is another.

Of course, it should be as close to correct as is possible at sale time, and it should be the dealer's responsibility to do so. The car dealer analogy is good. You expect the tire's air pressure and balance, the fluid levels, the suspension and frame alignment, headlight aim, etc. to all be right. Doesn't matter if you know how to do those things or not; the machine should be in good shape to play in public right out of the door. There will still be some adjustments needed, but they'll be very minor. Seat orientation, seatbelt tension, mirrors, radio station settings, etc.

Once you begin to use the thing, none of those adjustments will remain constant. That's where knowledge of how to make those adjustments comes in handy. If you have to take the car in for every little detail, you're going to get very frustrated with the thing, and the dealer is going to wish he'd never met you. Either that, or the car (guitar) is going to exhibit increasingly poor performance, and you're not gonna be happy. Dealer won't even know about it, but he and the manufacturer will both get bad-mouthed all over the place for something that isn't their fault.

It should be kept in mind, though, that not all adjustments are trivial. For example, front end alignment isn't something most people are prepared to do, even if they understand what's going on there. Takes some special tools and knowledge, and a bit of experience is handy. Just like fret dressing isn't a deep, dark secret. Just takes some special tools and a bit of experience. In both cases, you're better off taking your contraption to an experienced guy who's made the investment in time and tools to be able to do those kinds of jobs properly and correctly in a reasonable amount of time for a reasonable amount of money. Nothing saying you can't do it yourself or that you should, but neither of those jobs is something that would justify the tool expense for as often as those jobs need to be done, and the frequency those jobs need doing being low also means you aren't going to be properly experienced. Again, use the pro. But, other things, such as tire pressure, fluid levels, seat attitude, etc. are like tuning, intonation, string height, neck relief, etc., and should be well within the user's sphere of talents. If not, then you have reason to make fun of them <grin>

 

[-CB-]

one more point CB, most guys do not have an ear trained to know their guitar is out of intonation

Well, I guess that sums it up.  Since folks dont know how they're sounding, because thay dont have trained ears, they cant tell their guitar is out of whack, so they dont need to be able to adjust it.  I guess then they have lots of time to jump on their Yamasaka and ride... oh wait, the mirrors need adjusting... better call the dealer and have them trailer it back to the shop.  Damn dealer... cant get it right the first time when they bought the bike.... with the money you pay, you'd expect perfect adjustment suited for the rider, as delivered.  Harumph.......

Thanks for setting everyone straight Justatele!

 

[jay4321]

Deride them all you want, but many people just don't expect to buy projects when buying $2,000 guitars, and they're not marketed that way.

I'm not even sure why you've got all the snarky attitude about them either. Did you ever consider some folks don't have the kind of free time to post on the internet all day long or do nut filing? Some people just like to play guitar. Nothing wrong with that.