I wanted a Warmoth, I will take a gibson?

[Mor Paul]

http://www.gibson.com/en-us/lifestyle/
They've even got a page for it, Disco

 

[Disco Scottie]

http://www.gibson.com/en-us/lifestyle/
They've even got a page for it, Disco

:laughing7: I rest my case, your honor.

 

[jay4321]

As I always said I understand *little and bad* English - so something may escape myself -  personally I haven't ever talked about quality comparisons. I only said that, curiously from other brands and other models, the gibson SG standard **cost me**(ME) less than a Warmoth.
Stop.
Prices are too low (for poor quality) gibson? Maybe
Warmoth too high for too much quality? Maybe
After all, I am the same who said the rasmus Suhr is a marketing mistake for Mr. JS, so now do not tell everyone to say *yes ok it costs more but are better*. Who ever said otherwise?
I've a warmoth guitar. But opinions are a thing, facts another

oh well, now the derision  :icon_thumright:
*I'm NOT sure you're smarted than that*, less opportunist (meno PARACULO)

I omit the rest, just by itself.
Ok my intervention in this 3d end here.
Bye bye
:binkybaby:

Guy your comments are all over the map, and I think it's a little more than the language barrier.

If you have questions about Warmoth specifics and experiences, we can answer those, and in some cases people can for Gibsons also. But we can't make your decisions for you or break things down in absolutes as you seem to be looking for. Oh the way,

less opportunist (meno PARACULO)

"Less opportunist" is a terrible translation for meno paraculo. Go for "little smartass" or get a friend who speaks English. Trusting those google translators is bad news.

 

[Doughboy]

Sometimes you have to touch the hot stove & get burned before you realize it's not a good idea...

 

[Cagey]

Sometimes you have to touch the hot stove & get burned before you realize it's not a good idea...

I suspect that was the thinking behind Mayfly's recommendation earlier in the thread. That is, "go ahead and buy a Gibson". It that doesn't teach you, nothing will.

 

[Jusatele]

I think in the end, Warmoth is a parts company making necks and bodies. They are very well respected for those parts, but they are not a instrument company offering finished instruments.
So you buy a Gibson based on the value you can get from that
or Warmoth parts based on the same
You will never get the resale value out of the Warmoth you will get out of the Gibson
But then the quality of the finished Warmoth depends on who assembled the sum of all the parts, and the quality of the hardware on it. the Gibson as of this moment has the reputation  to the current buying public of putting out inferior products bit has an overall reputation to the general public of make a premier product. The resale of the Gibson will be high no matter what.
Case study is look at a CBS era Fender, the quality got so bad and sales were so bad they were bought back by employees who took years to get the reputation back. I mean 3 screw necks just to save the cost of 1 screw. But the collecting public goes not discount those CBS Fenders in price, they still go for a premium over a new Fender. As a musician those guitars are not worth much because of the features trimmed and such but the general collecting public knows little about such. If Gibson gets their act together and separates out the line such as Fender has, goes back and makes a quality line clearly identified as different from the normal line, and markets them all seperately, then they will regain the reputation they are lacking as of now. However they are not lacking in the sales department or the value of resale right now. After all even PRS has a lower line. But they have clear division, Gibson may just be a lot more intelligent than we give them credit for, if a person ask a question like this, then they are seen a a quality mark still to the general public. Think about that.

 

[Cagey]

I think what you say is true in general, but I also think the buying public is getting more savvy as time goes on. Years ago, you didn't have the choices you have today. The main competition was between styles from only a few manufacturers. These days, you can get any style from anybody and they're all pretty damn good. Even many of the imports are pretty damn good, and in many cases meet or exceed the quality of the domestic OEM units at extremely attractive prices. So, I don't know how long the resale value of Gibsons is going to hold up. They're grossly overpriced to begin with, so when you can get a new unit for less than the cost of used one, what's that going to do to the used market? Unless something is truly collectible, which is an ever-shrinking market when you look at today's production volumes, there's little reason to consider resale value. Guitars have become a commodity. Standard configuration Les Pauls and Strats are a dime a dozen.

This bodes well for companies like Warmoth, where you can build something truly unique. How many koa over mahogany or quilted maple over korina Strats with pau ferro over bubinga necks can you find in your myriad music catalogs? Approximately none. Those are going to be the future collectibles. You can get an alder strat with a maple neck and rosewood fretboard nearly anywhere. That's not collectible. It's too common. There are millions of them. They're like Franklin Mint plates. Same with Gibson's crap.

 

[Jusatele]

My main fault with Gibson is I can go into Guitar canter and pick up 4 LPs of different price range and can find the same QC issues with them all, there does not seem to be a reason to upgrade to better, Now with Fender I can clearly see better Hardware at first glance and upon inspection things like staggered tuners and stuff come to light.
I pick up a PRS and can feel the difference in the entire setup and the hardware is of top quality, (excuse me I have never messed with a SE series)
I also know they market the lines seperately, with Gibson I see no clear distinction they point out.
I think such as Harley Davidson, Gibson can go a long long way on reputation alone. After all a 1340 CC big twin can be blown away in HP, Handleing, performance and dependability by the average 600 CC Japanese motorcycle but yet they can still sell at a premium in larger numbers. That is an uneducated public. Even in a flooded market the resale stays way up there of an inferior product. The basic bike was engineered pre WWII. is around 50 HP and still uses only one brake disc up front.
All the glitz in the world though.

ever wonder why they can get thousands of guys together to break a record for the most guys playing Smoke on the Water at the same time but cannot get the same for  the 5ths symphony?

 

[Cagey]

Speaking of differences in a line, I have a hard time forgiving any manufacturer for not using the best hardware in the first place. Even at retail, the difference between using crap and the premium stuff won't change the price of guitar much more than $100, unless you buy into some really exotic overpriced boutique pickups some guy's making in his garage. In the grand scheme of things, what's that? And for OEMs, the differential has to be dramatically smaller. So, what's the excuse? Put Sperzels or Schallers and proper bridges on everything. Quite foisting off the crap nobody but the emotionally challenged teenager wants, but ends up having to replace 6 months later when he finds out he's made a mistake.

 

[JaySwear]

I think what you say is true in general, but I also think the buying public is getting more savvy as time goes on. Years ago, you didn't have the choices you have today.

Both points are very true. Years ago if you wanted a guitar you'd travel to a store and it was guaranteed that whatever that store had in stock was going to be "the best value for your dollar." But with the internet being pretty objective it's easy to do your shopping without a salesman telling you what you NEED to buy. Plus there are more choices guitar-wise than there ever were, and tomorrow there will be more than there are today. Chances are if there are specific specs you're looking for you can find them somewhere from some company. If not there's Warmoth :icon_biggrin:

 

[Jusatele]

I think what you say is true in general, but I also think the buying public is getting more savvy as time goes on. Years ago, you didn't have the choices you have today.

Both points are very true. Years ago if you wanted a guitar you'd travel to a store and it was guaranteed that whatever that store had in stock was going to be "the best value for your dollar." But with the internet being pretty objective it's easy to do your shopping without a salesman telling you what you NEED to buy. Plus there are more choices guitar-wise than there ever were, and tomorrow there will be more than there are today. Chances are if there are specific specs you're looking for you can find them somewhere from some company. If not there's Warmoth :icon_biggrin:

I think the times are changing faster than we think
now that the market is so open that we can buy quality parts such as Warmoth offers easily, and can assemble guitars of high quality with finishes that were once only in boutique arenas, in other words now that we can pick and choose our parts and get top quality in a place where you only had a few makers doing, We have the ability to create works of art at a price range once unheard of.
OK so you can buy a plain strat cheaper than you can assemble one, but it is when you start to include exotic woods and high grade finishes that you can get a finished product for half of what is is from the big guys.
what is important now is the final assembly and the quality of the tech you allow to set it up. That being you or outsourced.
I think we are moving into an age where the tech is going play a huge part as we are going see more and more of home assembled high quality axes out there.
That excites me. I see it as an age where a musician can work on his instrument in a creative way and have pride in it's creation.
Look at the stuff in our monthly GOTM contest. Now think of that as if we had to pay boutique prices for them all.

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

FWIW, the 3 bolt neck, don't know if was done to save one screw or what the deal was, but the idea in itself wasn't flawed, just the execution.  In "The Fender Book," one of the Fender swinging phallices commented that the neck joint was flawed from the getgo.  It could've had 10 bolts and still moved.  FWIW, the 3 bolt was never done at Fender while Leo was there, but is done at G&L where Leo had his fingerprints on everything.  If it didn't work at Fender, but somehow magically worked at G&L, got to be an execution flaw, not a design flaw.

 

[-CB-]

Get a Gibson SG Special - faded.  Get a hard case.

When you're in the mood, go ahead and refinish that guitar.

before (my two SG faded's)

after (the red one refinished in blackcherryburst)

The red one got P90's installed on it too.  Great guitars... zero issues, either of them.

 

[SpiderDeluxe]

I bought an SG Classic five or six years ago.  I played it in the shop and it sounded good and felt good.  At the time I paid ~$800 though now the price is around $1000.  Totally satisfied with what I spent.

That being said I still think you have to put a little love into any guitar you buy.  Every guitar I've bought was a little wonky off the shelf:  the intonation will not be perfect, string action will be somebody else's ideal, neck relief will not be what you want.

I've also picked up quite a few Gibson turds that were all wrong.  If QC is a concern, go play one at your local shop.  Kick the tires and make sure it's what you want. 

 

[Jusatele]

yes spyder, but when gibson is asking 3500 for a LP you would expect the setup to be perfect, not have them ask for100 dollars to set it up for you. My PRS came with a free setup,it did not have a glob ofglue that should have been wiped off pre finishing in the neck joint.

Gibson has qc issues it needs to handle.

 

[-CB-]

yes spyder, but when gibson is asking 3500 for a LP you would expect the setup to be perfect

1.  No manufacturer can do a perfect setup - since there is no definition of perfect setup - and more so, because of the environmental changes that are going to take place between factory, warehouse, shipping, another warehouse, display, and you finally purchasing it.  Don't blame the factories for that.

2.  If you buy from a small shop - many times you'll get the service along with the purchase.  If you buy from the buck-over-minimum-wage emozit at the big box place, or buy on-line, don't expect the service. 

3.  Setting up a guitar should be within the scope of skills of every guitar player

4.  There are EXCELLENT online dealers, who provide a price well well below the "online" big box stores - which are held to "minimum advertised pricing" as a way to stifle competition and keep profits up.  All the big boxes guarantee the lowest price.  Read the fine print - "advertised price".  Ever wonder why they're all pretty much the same "lowest price".  Thats why.  There is one Gibson dealer I know of, who is the #2 volume dealer for Gibson, and he does not have a big splashy website, just a small webpage that asks you to call for pricing.  Amazingly.... it works for him, because he has great online, and phone service.

5.  If you buy a guitar and its really bad, send it back.

 

[swarfrat]

Quality control is about trends and statistics. If you have a guitar in the hand that you love, it doesn't really matter that the rest of the guitars in the bushes meet 6 sigma production goals or not.  Yes Gibson is being run by boneheads. Yes their stuff is all over the place and over priced.  But if you find THE guitar, and you feel it's a good price, by all means buy it.

And btw - here's how its going to go down. Gibson will eventually go under because its being run by boneheads, and makers of high priced toys do not fare well during tough times, especially if they're run by boneheads. The company will be sold. This will be yet another chapter. CBS. Norlin. Thomas Organ. etc... People will badmouth current era Gibson stuff while they buy it up. Wait for 20 years to pass and now all of a sudden WHAM - it will become respectable and collectible. Someone will still be selling Gibson branded products for a very long time. Even if it happens to be Ibanez or Hyundai for a couple years.

 

[Jusatele]

yes spyder, but when gibson is asking 3500 for a LP you would expect the setup to be perfect

1.  No manufacturer can do a perfect setup - since there is no definition of perfect setup - and more so, because of the environmental changes that are going to take place between factory, warehouse, shipping, another warehouse, display, and you finally purchasing it.  Don't blame the factories for that.

2.  If you buy from a small shop - many times you'll get the service along with the purchase.  If you buy from the buck-over-minimum-wage emozit at the big box place, or buy on-line, don't expect the service.   

3.  Setting up a guitar should be within the scope of skills of every guitar player

4.  There are EXCELLENT online dealers, who provide a price well well below the "online" big box stores - which are held to "minimum advertised pricing" as a way to stifle competition and keep profits up.  All the big boxes guarantee the lowest price.  Read the fine print - "advertised price".  Ever wonder why they're all pretty much the same "lowest price".  Thats why.  There is one Gibson dealer I know of, who is the #2 volume dealer for Gibson, and he does not have a big splashy website, just a small webpage that asks you to call for pricing.  Amazingly.... it works for him, because he has great online, and phone service.

5.  If you buy a guitar and its really bad, send it back.

1. I expect a guitar to be setup and not needing an intonation when it is delivered to me, I will not accept it any other way
2. another reason to buy from shops that do appreciate your business and not mega stores trying to force you to accept shit for service\
3. That is the most rediculous thing I have ever heard, so should we also be required to be able to carve a new nut or solder in new pups?
4.Unfortunately most of the big boxed corporate stores do notoffer service
5.I have, numerous times over such as it was not even intoned and they would not pay to have that done.

a fool and his money is soon parted, and they are trying to make you part with it easier all the time. Buying from a place that treats you like shit instead of the guy who bends over backwards for your business is asking to be ripped off.

 

[-CB-]

Case study is look at a CBS era Fender, the quality got so bad and sales were so bad they were bought back by employees who took years to get the reputation back. I mean 3 screw necks just to save the cost of 1 screw.

It was more than quality - which did suffer, but not as bad as folks think.  Having been there, done that, lived and played quite a lot during the CBS days, hanging out in guitar stores as well, I'll tell you, they were ok for their time.

Here's the problem they faced, and which took them a while to figure out.  The problem was, they were making the same produces, pretty much the same way for decades.  The market was getting saturated.  What they tried to do, first, was horizontal growth - more models.  That works to a point, and can be very good if the models are the right ones, done in the right way.  We being fickle and finicky musicians, the horizontal growth was short lived.  Fender did do ok with Tele Customs and Deluxes.  They didn't do so well with Coronado and Bass Six.  Gibson had S-1's and Marauder guitars.    Then they started with the feature change scenario.  This is how Detroit was doing it.  Change the headlights, or the grille.  Thats why the 3 screw necks came into play.  There is no cost savings, its actually more expensive to do.  There is a 4th screw - the adjustment screw, and a plate screwed to the neck (with two more screws).  Its an elaborate fix for a problem that really only exists on Strats.... but... they did it on all the guitars to make them "better", thinking musicians would flock to the new feature.  They did not.  Why?  We knew all along that the "pre-CBS" stuff sounded better, played better, and got funky and worn better, and thats what we liked.   The Corporate boys didn't see this at all.  They were all students of classic American business practice - the same school of thought that got American car companies into the toilet.

Ok, here's what it boils down to - Fender and Gibson and Ric and Guild didn't sell guitars that people wanted to buy, the same as Chevy and Chrysler and Ford and American Motors didn't sell cars that people wanted to buy.   So, consumers went elsewhere - to far east cars, and to the older instruments out there that were the basis of what musicians wanted (the insane collecting begins).

Some interesting things - for instance at Harley, they were owned by AMF in those days.  Dark days there too, the quality was suffering "to make the numbers" just like Gibby and Fender and Chevy and Ford (the latter two had bad quality since the 40's).  At Harley, the workers knew this, and the local management (including Willie G Davidson III) knew it as well.  So what did they do?  They began a secret program of improvements and upgrades and they waited until things got real bad, and took over the company.  Then it was a matter of about two years and we saw major improvements, continuing still.   I know about the "secret program" because it later came out in some "insider" books written by the old shop managers and engineers and such.   They still have some zingers, but mostly its a damn good product.  And mostly Gibson and Fender make good stuff, and Ford has gotten its butt in gear - Chevy is trying to, maybe.   American Motors... fell out, just like we dont see Guild solid bodies any more.

And there you have it.

The test is on Friday, so study up.

 

[Jusatele]

Quality control is about trends and statistics. If you have a guitar in the hand that you love, it doesn't really matter that the rest of the guitars in the bushes meet 6 sigma production goals or not.  Yes Gibson is being run by boneheads. Yes their stuff is all over the place and over priced.  But if you find THE guitar, and you feel it's a good price, by all means buy it.

And btw - here's how its going to go down. Gibson will eventually go under because its being run by boneheads, and makers of high priced toys do not fare well during tough times, especially if they're run by boneheads. The company will be sold. This will be yet another chapter. CBS. Norlin. Thomas Organ. etc... People will badmouth current era Gibson stuff while they buy it up. Wait for 20 years to pass and now all of a sudden WHAM - it will become respectable and collectible. Someone will still be selling Gibson branded products for a very long time. Even if it happens to be Ibanez or Hyundai for a couple years.

you forgot that they market the product so well that we will buy it because they make us want it. Just look at Harley Davivson, they get over 10 grand for motorcycles that are less than 60 horse power, handle like they were engineered in 1939, oh wait, they were, and break down once a week. while you can buy a Japeneese bike for 7 grand that has over 100 horses, has no mechanical issues and runs like a sewing machine. But then that is marketing. And Gibson markets those guitars the same way so they will sell