I have a dream that involves Tru-Oil and Stain/Dye - help me make it come true

[alexreinhold]

Hi all, I've been doing a colorless Tru-Oil job. For the next build, my vision is a non-shiny + black see-through + Zebrawood laminate top/Mahogany body. Assuming I want to use Tru-Oil, I have a few questions:

- should i use stain or dye for the black coloring?
- is there any specific product you can recommend?
- at which stage of the sealing/filling/oil-application process, will I have to put the stain/dye?
- any other recommendations (sanding, etc.)?

For reference, the color should look a little like this (without the shine):

 

[rauchman]

I know this works for swamp ash

Seal the wood.  Swamp ash has deep porous grains, so the sealer doesn't get in there well.  Hit it with black dye.  Sand off the sealer.  Rehit the entire body with black dye.  Fill/seal and go to town on the TruOil

Not sure, but I think a "dye" is what you're looking for here.  It worked for me with the swamp ash.

 

[Rick]

I've had good luck with Keda stains, but people here use other products.
I've put the stain on before sealing, my experience is only with maple.  As such, there was no need to grain fill.  I'd probably do grain fill first, before staining, if filling is necessary.
I put the stain on, then sand back, then stain again if necessary, then sand back, then stain then sand back.  I wouldn't do this more than three times.  At that point it is what it is.

 

[PhilHill]

I had a dream that involved coconut oil and strawberry jam and Alicia Keys ... ... however we probably shouldn't get into that. The only thing I would add is to suggest that you get smaller piece of zebrawood  as a test piece to make sure you really want to darken the top that much. Zebrawood can be really wild looking on it's own............. :icon_thumright:

 

[Rick]

I tend to agree with Phil, usually Zebrawood looks preeetttty good on its own.

 

[alexreinhold]

Thanks for the answers guys. The aesthetic theme of my guitar is mostly black (also tele shape with black aluminium pickguard). So i need to get towards black but I do want the wood to shine through significantly. However, keep in mind that only the laminate top will be zebra...

Also, I still don't know if I should use stain or dye  :icon_tongue:

 

[PhilHill]

Thanks for the answers guys. The aesthetic theme of my guitar is mostly black (also tele shape with black aluminium pickguard). So i need to get towards black but I do want the wood to shine through significantly. However, keep in mind that only the laminate top will be zebra...

Also, I still don't know if I should use stain or dye  :icon_tongue:

I have had better results with leather dye myself. Others swear by stain. For black I'm thinking it might not make much difference. You might end up with a little more shine with dye on the mahogany, but I can't say for sure with the zebra.... :headbang:

 

[alexreinhold]

I have been reading up on stain finishes for 3 more hours. While it's supposedly the easiest finish, the amount of contradictory information online far surpasses nitro or poly though :-/ So here's my plan - what do you think?

1-2 coats of Timbermate Grain Filler Ebony (water-based) - to fill the pores, highlight the grain and give it a nice dark base

2-3 coats of Keda Dye Stain Powder Coal Black OR StewMac's Liquid Stain - for the black transparent color

6+ coats of Tru-Oil for finishing

Sanding between coats. What do you think? Also, Keda or StewMac? Or does it even matter?

 

[rauchman]

I have been reading up on stain finishes for 3 more hours. While it's supposedly the easiest finish, the amount of contradictory information online far surpasses nitro or poly though :-/ So here's my plan - what do you think?

1-2 coats of Timbermate Grain Filler Ebony (water-based) - to fill the pores, highlight the grain and give it a nice dark base

2-3 coats of Keda Dye Stain Powder Coal Black OR StewMac's Liquid Stain - for the black transparent color

6+ coats of Tru-Oil for finishing

Sanding between coats. What do you think? Also, Keda or StewMac? Or does it even matter?

I doubt there is much difference between the dye's.  I used Keda and had great results.  Just need to read the directions well and experiment with different mixtures of how much dye to add to water/alcohol when using Keda.

I'm sure everyone has their secret method on amount of coats, but for the TruOil, I do 2 coats / day, for 2 weeks.  Every other day, I use 1000+ grit wet/dry  sandpaper with TruOil to smooth and fill pores.  For a really shiny gloss, mix with 50% Naptha or Mineral Spirits on the final coat.  Let sit for 1 month, then go back and polish.

 

[Rick]

And be gentle with the 1000+ grit sand paper.  In fact, with later coats if the spot didn't have a problem, I'd rub it with a paper towel, and I got adherence.  Also, after coat 4, I start thinning the tru-oil.

 

[alexreinhold]

I've been thinking... does it really make sense to use black grain filler with black dye if I want to highlight the grain patterns? Would it maybe make more sense to use a contrast color for the grain fill?

 

[rauchman]

I've been thinking... does it really make sense to use black grain filler with black dye if I want to highlight the grain patterns? Would it maybe make more sense to use a contrast color for the grain fill?

Really depends on the look you're going for.  In that pic (that looks to have been removed), to me it looks like the grain was hit with a dye/stain first (varying methods on this), and then the rest of the body was done with a slightly lighter tint to have some contrast.

 

[alexreinhold]

Yeah, that pic is gone :-/

Interesting... Would it make sense to go in with a bright grain filler like white or tint and then dye in black for to make the grain show or would that be over the top?

 

[rauchman]

Yeah, that pic is gone :-/

Interesting... Would it make sense to go in with a bright grain filler like white or tint and then dye in black for to make the grain show or would that be over the top?

I did this guitar over the summer.  This gives you an idea of reverse tinting for the grain....

 

[alexreinhold]

I did this guitar over the summer.  This gives you an idea of reverse tinting for the grain....

This is beautiful!!! I absolutely love it and it's definitely very close to what I have in mind. May I ask what products you used and in which sequence?

 

[rauchman]

I did this guitar over the summer.  This gives you an idea of reverse tinting for the grain....

This is beautiful!!! I absolutely love it and it's definitely very close to what I have in mind. May I ask what products you used and in which sequence?

Used this for the white https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005RYYTU6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_image_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Used this for the dye.  The color the guitar wound up being was the culmination of a lot of trying to different colorings.  It went through being all white (actually a little sorry I didn't stick with this), black, red, yellow, etc.  Then hit on this earthy tone that worked. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00BAKWTMQ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Used this for the sealer - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001MQNJ40?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_dt_b_asin_image

And of course, TruOil - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001MQNJ40?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_dt_b_asin_image

Process.....

Sand body - Go at least up to 240, think I went 600

Use the sealer and lightly "seal" the body.  The grain pores won't be filled and will allow the dye in the grain, while preventing the contrast dye applying to the body.

Apply dye to desired color to color the grain

Sand off sealer

Apply overall body color dye.  I'd suggest getting some scrap wood (preferably the same type as the body you're making) and do some experimentation with the dye coloring.  I found going with a medium color density and applying multiple coats got me better results. 
Once dye is done, reseal the body

Lightly sand

Start applying TruOil - If you want a gloss, for the last few coats, thin with half Naptha or Mineral spirits.  For applying, I get a big bag of rags from Lowes https://www.lowes.com/pd/ProLine-8-Pack-Cotton-Cloth/50110534.  I started a thread here on best method of applying TruOil, and folks use a wide variety of applying materials...coffee filters, blue shop paper towels, etc.
I applied 2-3 coats of TruOil per day (when starting, you can use 3 coats, once the body starts shining up after a few coats, dial it back to 2 coats/day), for about 2 weeks.  I wanted the grain filled to make a even surface.  Every other day or so, use wet/dry sandpaper (1000+grit), and the slurry will fill the pores nicely to make an even surface.  This video had some great techniques for this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lO-gIyIYV8.  You can also use a filler here instead.  He used steel wool. I tried steel wool, but found it left little bits of steel wood on the body.  I switched to 1000+ wet/dry sandpaper and this worked better for me.

Again, for a gloss finish, the last few coats mix with 50% Naptha or Mineral Spirits.  This will thin the TruOil
Once done, let sit for a month

After sitting, polish up the body.  I wound up using car polisher and it worked great

Lastly, get the big bottle of TruOil.  Yes, an experienced person can do this process with the small bottle.  This has not been my experience.  There is a lot of learning in the process, and even with having done 2 guitars now, I still make mistakes and find having the extra from the big bottle, winds up getting used.

Also, keep reading.  There are A LOT of very talented people on this site that do waaaaay better work that I do, and will inspire ideas.

 

[alexreinhold]

First of all, thanks so much for taking the time to share your wisdom - this a massive help, I owe you! Some questions:

Used this for the white https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005RYYTU6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_image_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I actually want the color to be a bit blacker/darker and the grain to be a bit grayer/darker (as opposed to white). Do you think I should go for more dark dye or a darker color for the reverse tint? Or, will a white grain filler maybe not as "aggressive" as a dye?

Used this for the sealer - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001MQNJ40?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_dt_b_asin_image

If I go for colored grain filling instead of the white dye, would I need a sealer still?
Also: this was a swamp ash body, right?