Hipshot Hardtail Bridge Height Issues on Strats?

[Cagey]

Has anyone used a Hipshot hardtail bridge on a Strat? Specifically, I'm talking about their model 41105B, which is the the unit pictured below with a .175" floor...

They also make a model 41100B which is the same thing with a .125" floor, which I bought first and need to send back or sell if anyone wants it. It's new, but I'll take a hit for convenience's sake...

By "floor", they mean the thickness of the base of the unit, which is what the saddle height adjustment screws bear against and sets a nominal starting point for string height.

The problem I'm having is the thing is still too short. I'm using a Warmoth Pro Strat neck, and a Warmoth Strat body. I measured the neck pocket depth on the body, and it's close enough to the standard .625" depth that I don't think that's an issue. That is, it doesn't have the "720 mod" (it's a top-route body, anyway). Also, it doesn't seem to be angled at all. But, in order to raise the high E string enough to even get it off the 'board, I've got to run the saddle adjustment screws nearly to their full extension. It's only going to get worse as I get toward the center strings where the neck radius demands a bit more height out of the strings. I understand how the geometry works for all this, which leads me to think these bridges either aren't designed to work on Strats, or I'm missing something. Any thoughts?

 

[Dreamert]

A bit late on the reply but.....

I just installed mine, I didn't find a way to adjust the saddle to a satisfying height with the base resting against the body (like a hardtail bridge), had to let it float, almost 3/16'' to a 1/4'' from the body to get a good range on the saddles...

All I have to say unfortunately.

 

[Cagey]

You may have misunderstood, or I didn't make myself clear. This IS a hardtail bridge. It's supposed to mount flush and tight to the body. But, thanks for playing! <grin>

I resolved it by routing the neck pocket another .100" deeper,  so all's well now. Scary business, routing there. A mistake would more or less waste the body. But, I bought a neck template from StewMac and used it to keep me honest, and everything is still tight, so no worries. Only drawback is the Warmoth emblem is gone now, but I'm not sure who would care anyway. Not that I have any plans to sell it, but you never know and some people can be picky.

Incidentally, for anyone else who's considering routing a neck pocket, the StewMac template isn't to spec. The opening is 2.250" (2 1/4") when it should be 2.187" (2 3/16"), so it's 1/16" too wide. For a new pocket, that would be unacceptably sloppy. I used it anyway because the pocket was already routed, so it functioned as a platform for the router to ride on. I used a 1/2" mortise bit with a top bearing which simply rode along the existing walls. That way, I maintained the LxW dimensions and only cut the depth. Worked like a champ.

 

[Steve_Karl]

Ouch.

That's a bit scary.
The .pdf for the Vintage strat and Narrow strat tha are sold on Warmoth.com imply that the plate thickness is .09475

http://www.warmoth.com/hardware/bridges/pdf/Vintage_Narrow_Diagram.pdf

... so if your hipshot is .175 then that makes it seem like there'd be even a greater problem with the ones Warmoth is selling,
i.e. unless the saddles and screws on the ones in stock at Warmoth.com are radically different in hight / length than the hipshot.

I hope one of the W guys weigh in on this one.

 

[Cagey]

Ouch. That's a bit scary.

Yeah, no kidding. I had forgotten about it and put some money and labor into the body, plus the original cost, so I was pretty anxious about the whole operation. I've done a lot of routing, but one of the things I've learned about it over the years is that you can do one helluva lotta damage in a hurry even with careful planning <grin>

...unless the saddles and screws on the ones in stock at Warmoth.com are radically different in hight / length than the hipshot.

That's the only thing that makes sense. I don't have a vintage bridge to compare to, so I don't know, but everything else measured properly, which only leaves the bridge.

 

[Steve_Karl]

Well I'm glad it's solved for you.

I know about the dangers of home neck pocket routing from my first warmoth, assembled by a local butcher who had the sensitivity and touch of an American Tourister gorilla.
Rather than telling me there was an issue with the used bridge I gave him to put on it he opted to "fix it" without asking me or presenting the option to buy the correct bridge.
My neck pocket on the mahogany in my (avitar) is still very adjustable from left to right.

I eventually fixed the bad tilt angle, also caused by his poor routing skills, by scraping with a very wide and sharp chisel and a small metal straight edge. That was over 15 yrs. ago.It took 3 or 4 attempts over the course of a few months but it's perfect for me now.

If I ever take the neck off I just have to remember (after putting it back on, restringing and then loosening) to pull it towards the top horn while watching the string alignment on both edges when tightening to get it back to where I'm comfortable with it.

My latest "W" build, late 2010, ( all me with the help of just being here ) is a tight neck pocket. No wiggle room at all and a perfect neck angle.VS-100.

 

[Cagey]

Gotta love the VS100. I have them on 3 guitars, soon to be 4, and can't see my way clear to anything else. Simple, effective and reliable at a reasonable price.

 

[Steve_Karl]

Yep. I'm very impressed with the VS100 also.

But my next one has to be a hard tail.

 

[NovasScootYa]

Presuming  the .125" hipshot was used it sounds like you should have used the .175" version, .050" more wood would be left in the pocket and perhaps the .175" version had a different saddle range, etc.
A .050" shim placed below the maxed out high E-saddle screws would give an idea what the .175" plate would do or about how much to rout, etc.
When StewMac first offered the hipshot hardtail I ordered a gold one and sent it back because of setup problems and import string spacing, nothing to do with quality.  I admire your determination to install it but IMO a Fender 57/62 would have been the better less expensive route or a Callaham, Warmoth bridge or if you wanted something special, use a 57/62 bridge plate and titanium saddles. Not to say these bridges would never require pocket routing because they sometimes do.
A Callaham hardtail plate is .101" thick. The Fender 57/62 plate is .110" thick. Generally when a Strat with a 57/62, 2 7/32" spacing hardtail bridge is properly setup the G & D saddles will have one full 360 degree thread and a bit more protruding above both saddles. The B, A, E, E will fall in place with both E saddles not being too high or too low; setup is based on a Pro neck using taller 6105 wire, 10/16 radius, notes clean acoustically.

 

[Cagey]

I used the .175" plate Hipshot. I figured the taller the bridge, the less meat I'd have to remove from the neck pocket floor.

I had briefly considered shims before I bought the taller bridge, but figured I'd eat some tone by adding two more interfaces to each string's mount, plus the chances were good I'd lose one or more shims while changing strings. Besides, between shims and hyper-extended saddle height adjustment screws, it'd put a wicked angle on the saddles, which is never a Good Thing.

 

[NovasScootYa]

I used the .175" plate Hipshot. I figured the taller the bridge, the less meat I'd have to remove from the neck pocket floor.

I had briefly considered shims before I bought the taller bridge, but figured I'd eat some tone by adding two more interfaces to each string's mount, plus the chances were good I'd lose one or more shims while changing strings. Besides, between shims and hyper-extended saddle height adjustment screws, it'd put a wicked angle on the saddles, which is never a Good Thing.

With the .100" deep rout I couldn't imagine the .175" plate was used. Apparently the hipshot saddles must be in a league of their own.  A Pro neck/ Warmoth strat hardtail body should setup using a vintage bridge with a plate thickness of .100 -.110 inch. In comparison the .175" hipshot bridge plate towers the vintage plate by .075 inches and  factor in the .100" rout depth and that's a whole lot of Stratocaster real estate. I take it you used a 21 fret neck with no overhang? Did the neck pup have to be lowered level with the pickguard and bridge pup raised a bunch? The shim I was referring to was for determining initial setup, bridge height and rout depth. One way or another you got her done and that's what guitar building is all about.

 

[Cagey]

Once I git 'er done, I'll post pictures w/ measurements so they can be compared to similar setups with other bridges. I've still got some substantial finish work to do on that body, though, so it might be a couple weeks.

 

[stefan]

I'm building a rear-route Strat with the 720 mod - in your opinion do I want the .125 or .175?

I was originally thinking the .125 would be correct with the deeper neck route and slight angle, but your post has got me thinking.

Also, if you still need to offload the .125 and it's black, send me a PM I was about to buy one.

 

[Cagey]

Since you have the 720 mod the .125" would probably work ok. The 720 mod drops your pocket floor almost .100", and the .175" base Hipshot almost worked without the mod, but didn't leave any wiggle room for string height.

It is a black part, so I'll send a PM.

 

[Bruno]

Sorry for this question (1/2 OT perhaps) but I've a hardtail Hipshot bridge (buyed in 2006 - different saddles, but stainless too -). What warmoth bridge rout I must choose?
Standard, vintage or another one (custom)?

Thanks

 

[Cagey]

You would need to look up the mechanical or installation drawings for the model of the bridge you have, and compare the required footprint to what Warmoth offers. I don't remember what the original drill pattern was on my body, and since the bridge is now installed I can't really measure it accurately. But, it was one of their standard patterns, anyway. I noticed at the link above in their list of alternatives that they don't provide drawings for that there's a Hipshot listed in there, too. So, chances are good you're gonna be ok, one way or another.

 

[Bruno]

I hope they are referring to the correct model (only this I've found on Hipshot website)




...also my bridge is installed  :guitarplayer2:



p.s.:
I must recover this bridge, Sperzel T/L and EMG electronics&pups from a custom guitar (build by a self-styled young Ita luthie) that I hate for too defects (if I had the courage to call Warmoth 6 years ago... I would not have this problem now...)

 

[Cagey]

That looks like Hipshot's model 41100-C, which is represented by the drawing at the link or this drawing from StewMac...

Warmoth's Vintage-style Strat drill pattern...

Warmoth's American Std. Strat drill pattern...

As you can see, the Hipshot doesn't match anything perfectly, and seems to be a combination of the two Fender (Warmoth) hole patterns. It wants the vintage screw mount spacing, but the Am. Std. string hole pattern. So, pick one and adjust from there, or if you're buying a new body, don't have the bridge drilled at all and do it yourself. Or, you could call Warmoth and see if they'll match up to your bridge as an off-line operation. That costs $45, so unless you're handy with a drill motor, you may want to consider just replacing the bridge with something that'll bolt right up.

 

[Bruno]

As you can see, the Hipshot doesn't match anything perfectly, and seems to be a combination of the two Fender (Warmoth) hole patterns. It wants the vintage screw mount spacing, but the Am. Std. string hole pattern.

Yes...
I'm thinking vintage rout
So I can try to fix the 6-holes (strings).

But ultimately: 11.3mm vs 10.8mm. What would happen if I used the spacing vintage?
The strings would break? Intonation?
What?


thank you so much Cagey  :icon_thumright:

 

[Cagey]

I'm pretty sure my body had the vintage hole spacing drilled the way I got it, and I just opened up the 6 string holes a bit to provide clearance. The ferrules are what hold the string in place from the back, so the hole the string itself runs through isn't critical as long as you can thread the string through to the top from the back. I don't think you'd have any more of a breakage issue than you would normally, since the string has to break over the edge of that hole anyway. The string is also not moving around much since the bridge mounting is fixed, so that breakover isn't really a wear point. Intonation is set by the saddle position, so that's not an issue, either.