Headstock Decal Question

[aarontunes]

Hey headstock decal experts! A headstock-decal-non-expert here, with some questions:


I am working on another personal build, and trying my hand at a headstock decal for the first time! Unfortunately I'm having problems applying the decals I got from Rothko & Frost.


I'm applying them on top of Warmoth's normal urethane finish, and then spraying more urethane over the top. However, every time I do so the decal shrivels up.


What am I doing wrong? Are waterslide decals only designed for use with nitro finishes? Any suggestions for decal success with the urethane finish Warmoth uses?

 

[bagman67]

Shellac may be your friend here, Aaron.  If you first scuff-sand the headstock and spray with shellac, then spray the decal with a little shellac before applying it, and finally, topcoat the whole affair with shellac before applying urethane, you may get better results.  Shellac insulates from a lot of other nasty chemical interactions.


Others may have other views, and of course, test it on scrap before you get into a real live-fire situation.

 

[Day-mun]

[tt]I was just gonna go on here to say the very same thing. Bagman hit the nail on the head.

 

[Unwound G]

Vintage Fender apply their decals after the neck has been painted. So far I have seen most of these guitar decals stood up to time pretty well.

You could layer a few coats of rattle can clear on the face of the decal and wait to dry. Cut it to shape and apply the decal to a painted headstock.

 

[Rick]

I don’t think it would be the substrate that’s the issue. I think it’s what is being put on top that’s the issue. I’ve had no problems with decals on top and under tru oil.  I’ve tried polyuterene on top of poly and it got wrinkly.  I got the impression that when it dried the problem happened.  So I guess the solution is make sure the decal is dry, and then put on a finish that won’t  contract the decal  when drying.  Anyway that was the problem I had.

 

[stratamania]

Not all decals are created equal. R & F decals are very thin and are not compatible with Tru-Oil.

It sounds to me as the Urethane is being applied too thickly.  An initial coat over the decal needs to be a mist coat.

Fender used to put decals on with lacquer over urethane. Which is why you will see older Fenders with the face of the headstock having gone darker or more amber over time.

Is it possible to do a mist coat with Urethane? 
It may also have compatibility issues. R &F decals I have used lacquer.

In case you do not have a copy here are R & Fs own instructions.

https://www.rothkoandfrost.com/downloads/1518364846CLS002-CLS-Waterslide-Decals-Application-Instructions.pdf

 

[Cagey]

I'm sure the solvents are the culprit. Whatever they're using as reducer for your poly is causing the decal's substrate to expand on the face faster than under the thing, so it's wrinkling as one side of the decal expands faster than the other while the glue dissolves. Bagman's suggestion to seal it with shellac may work well, keeping the poly and its vehicle isolated from the decal. Just be sure to allow lotsa time for the shellac to cure, in case the poly's reducer wants to attack that as well. Mixing chemistries is always a crapshoot.

Depending on what it costs to get these decals, maybe you wanna order several and do some experimenting on scrap neck wood finished with Warmoth's poly recipe? Seems like you guys might have a finished neck or two laying around waiting for curbside service. Do us all some good to know what works or otherwise :icon_biggrin:

 

[aarontunes]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions.


Warmoth satin finished necks are nitro, which makes applying decals easier, I think.


The neck I'm working with has a headstock laminate under glossy urethane, which is why it's being more difficult. I'll experiment with some of the ideas and see how it goes.

 

[Rick]

@stratman.  True mine were not Rothko and Frosts.  They were plain black and printed with regular lazer jet ink.  Based on the above, I bet the steps would be apply the decal.  Spray on some lacquer to seal it in.  Then apply the poly, or tru-oil or whatever, though I bet just the lacquer would look good.

 

[BigSteve22]

...An initial coat over the decal needs to be a mist coat...

Very important step, at least when dealing with lacquer. I use 5-6 mist coats, each just slightly heavier than the last, but still almost dry by the time it settles on the surface. Then, it sits for a week of so to make sure what's already laid down is cured. Then the first few actual "coats" are also applied a little on the light side, and built up slowly. With the lacquer, the idea is that the mist coats provide a surface above the decal for the final lacquer coats to melt into, and therefore protecting the delicate decal beneath. 

Because the Urethane does not re-melt when additional coats are applied, I'm thinking Ian's suggestion is the way to go. I ended up with extra R&F decals decal from my last build, I'd be happy to send you some to experiment with. PM me... 

 

[stratamania]

@stratman.  True mine were not Rothko and Frosts.  They were plain black and printed with regular lazer jet ink.  Based on the above, I bet the steps would be apply the decal.  Spray on some lacquer to seal it in.  Then apply the poly, or tru-oil or whatever, though I bet just the lacquer would look good.

That could work potentially. Would need to be tested though ahead of time.

 

[Seamas]

Perhaps a mist coat on the decal while it is still on the paper backing--and before cutting it out will help.

 

[BigSteve22]

Perhaps a mist coat on the decal while it is still on the paper backing--and before cutting it out will help.

That is interesting. Reminds me that on my first build, I didn't use R&F. I went with a local guy who printed his decals on an ink jet printer, and coated the decals, with lacquer or poly, depending upon the customers request. He then removed them from the paper, filled in the script with gold paint from the back, and put them back on the paper before shipping. That's a pretty convoluted process, but it worked.

Point is, apparently coating them before application allowed them to be buried under poly. I can't vouch for this because mine were coated in lacquer, but could very well be worth a try.

 

[Seamas]

Perhaps a mist coat on the decal while it is still on the paper backing--and before cutting it out will help.

That is interesting. Reminds me that on my first build, I didn't use R&F. I went with a local guy who printed his decals on an ink jet printer, and coated the decals, with lacquer or poly, depending upon the customers request. He then removed them from the paper, filled in the script with gold paint from the back, and put them back on the paper before shipping. That's a pretty convoluted process, but it worked.

Point is, apparently coating them before application allowed them to be buried under poly. I can't vouch for this because mine were coated in lacquer, but could very well be worth a try.

Yes this is the exact process I used

I wasn't 100% happy with this--I think it was the decal paper, as I can see the edge. considering re-doing it. I am pretty sure the process is fine though.