Enhanced grain finish procedure?

[ildar]

Sorry if this has been covered, but I'm planning on a certain finish and have a few questions. I want to do a red dye with black grainfill for an enhanced grain look.
Should I:
A) Start filling first, then dye, then spray shellac and lacquer
B) Dye first, then fill, then spray, or
C) Dye 1st, clear shellac, fill, then lacquer?

Also, what's a good tint to filler ratio?

 

[m4rk0]

I would say A)
Also, you could use a dark filler rather than tint it...

 

[m4rk0]

Oops, ignore my answer.. I was assuming that you were talking about Ash for some reason..
I guess that you are finishing a maple top, and I don't have any experience with that at all..

 

[ildar]

Actually, it will be a swamp ash body.

 

[jackthehack]

Sequence A) would be correct. You could use a red toner instead of dye, in that case it the toner would go under/before the top lacquer gloss or stain coat.

 

[-CB-]

if you properly fill the grain, the shellac is not needed

 

[stubhead]

I'm looking at this exact question, though my colors will be brownish fill in the open pores and an amber tint to the wood. The issue as I see it is in trying to keep the color of the open grain from getting too dark, because that won't sand back out as easily as you could re-lighten the surface wood by sanding. Supposedly, a single finish coat of shellac before dying can help control the amount of darkness added in the dying process, but that sounds like an "advanced" technique or at least one you want to fiddle with a room full of swamp ash scraps first.

There are a couple of things I have learned from experience. One, you can use a very diluted water-based dye solution and just keep putting on more coats and letting them dry till it's right, as opposed to trying to get it all perfect in one big slobber; two, you can bleach out water-based dye and start over if you don't like where it's headed. I'm still trying to figure out how quickly the grain filler will absorb the dye (my brown/your black) but I haven't even ordered the wood so I'm sure I'll have it sussed in time. I want to model willyk's barndoor bass, only amber-er and dirtier:

 

[-CB-]

[quote author=stubhead ]The issue as I see it is in trying to keep the color of the open grain from getting too dark, because that won't sand back out as easily as you could re-lighten the surface wood by sanding. Supposedly, a single finish coat of shellac before dying can help control the amount of darkness added in the dying process
[/quote]

If you seal the wood with shellac, you wont get any dye penetration at all.  If your dye is really strong, you need to use a reducer, that way its easy to get both the correct shade and "even" results without splotching.  Depending on the dye there are different reducers used

 

[stubhead]

f you seal the wood with shellac, you wont get any dye penetration at all.

It was explained in Michael Dresdner's "Wood Finishing Book" that I had out of the library, but I certainly couldn't see how it would work, unless you were using an oil-based dye that would color the shellac? If I remember right, you thin the shellac with spirits(?) too. I think the main idea was to partially mask off the endgrain parts of the wood, so that the overall color would come out more even. That's sort of the opposite of what I want anyway, which is uneven darker parts where the grain is open.

http://www.michaeldresdner.com/

Dresdner:

In that time, I've run my own restoration business, written five books, authored hundreds of magazine articles and produced four popular videotapes on all aspects of wood finishing. I've also headed up the R & D department of a well-known guitar manufacturer, served as founding general manager of another guitar manufacturing company and consulted with numerous industrial clients and custom woodworkers on finishing and production manufacturing.

He lives in Puyallup, it's gotta be either Warmoth or USA Custom... they've got like a "Woodworking Mafia" think running up there in Seattle, it seems. :dontknow:

 

[-CB-]

Mike is advocating a "seal coat" of shellac, after void filling, and dyeing the wood, and after grain filling.  Not before dyeing the wood.  The seal coat - IF - needed was either a coat of your finish or shellac or other sealer as is needed for the finish and wood you're using.

Your afraid that if you dye the wood, then fill, you'll sand back the dye when leveling the filler.  I agree, and suggest a reversal of the steps to : fill first, then dye. 

This all depends on the filler, the wood, and visual effect.  If you want a stark grain, standing out, a black or dark brown filler will be fine before the dye.  Swamp ash comes to mind here. The filler does not absorb the dye all that well and will not take on very much color at all.  Keep in mind a color like blue, will turn brown filler "black" more from the color-over-color effect than actually dying it.  Clear filler works over wood that has deep grain that you want to dye - mahogany dyed red comes to mind.  Swamp ash and coarse grained woods probably work better with filler under the dye.

That make more sense?

 

[-CB-]

Fender factory usa 52ri, and my own enhanced grain "amber" thinline.  The thinline has brown filler under amber toner, all covered by clear lacquer.  I used shellac over the filler, in an attempt to keep the lacquer (and toner) from shrinking in too much.  I think it helped a bit, but not dramatically, as the wood was filled pretty well to begin with.

The key for this sort of thing - is time.  Let it shrink and cure in.  You can level that last coat - only when its fully shrunken and tight.  And that could be weeks for those who just let things air cure.  In the summer here, I use Sol as a curative source for UV.  Jack used the tanning beds upstairs at the titty bar.

 

[jackthehack]

Is that the Mohawk Ultra Classic Amber toner on the Thinline? Looks a little darker than the ReRanch Fender Neck Amber I used for toner on the flametop below? Or did you draken it up by applying more coats?

 

[stubhead]

Yeah, that ash Tele looks like almost exactly what I'm after, maybe even a little darker in the fill (and less shiny, more like an old oar). Here in the description for McFadden's pore filler from LMI:

http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/thirdproducts.asp?CategoryName=Filler&NameProdHeader=McFadden%92s%99+Pore+Filler
they say:

If it is used on the bare wood, without a sealer coat first, it will stain the wood, which might also be desirable.

In the description on Stew-Mac's site, they say:

Tip: Before applying a colored filler on bare wood, spray a sealer coat if you want the color only in the grain pores.

That's not what I'm going to do, but it does appear to be common enough. I'm going to follow your method, and just use sanding and the last dye coats to keep my colors happy. :toothy10:

 

[-CB-]

Jack, yes thats Mohawk Amber and its a bit darker than would be used on a neck.

Its really... really close to the same color, but the neck amber has less pigment , more carrier.

And yes, I applied it a bit darker too, with extra coats.

---

The stewmac water based doesn't really "stain" the wood, but will fill the small pores as well as the big ones, giving an interesting effect, and .... it looks like darker wood unless you sand it back.  In that case, you can get a light/dark effect really easily.

 

[willyk]

                                                                                 

My barndoor bass has a second generation finish, from clear gloss to black grainfill under satin clear. This swamp ash LP was sand sealed first. I was using my own sloppy mix of black stain and clear grainfiller and didn't want to risk color bleed into the wood. After I sanded it to the desired look I added some brown stain to clear satin poly and got the amber effect I was after.​

 

[-CB-]

thats cool lookin.... and another p90 in the neck/hb at the bridge.... what a sweet combination