De-angle neck pocket??

[Cederick]

I wanna have a guitar with Floyd that's resting against the body.

But the angle makes the Floyd sit in the air so it's still floating, which makes me think "why even have the brideg floating when it could be recessed for no charge" (the angled pocket is $10) :dontknow:

So... Why can't the body be ordered with Floyd holes on top and NOT angled pocket? I would have to shim the neck, but I know that.

Is the angled part higher or lower than the regular pocket? Means; if it's higher, it could be simply routed down to a regular pocket, but it's angled lower in the upper end, it wont be possible.

Please help out here  :toothy10:

 

[fdesalvo]

The height is resultant of the bridge studs height, not where the tail is sitting.  If you deck the trem, you will still need the angled pocket to bring the action down.

 

[dmraco]

  It is not needed with a recessed unit, however when it sits on top it need because the bridge is too high and the string action will be too low without the angled pocket.  The angled pocket raises the strings to the bridge height.

When installing the studs should be raised just enough so the front of the floyd will not bind when is use and can be raised and lowered for you desired action.  Then tighten the springs up to bottom out the back of the floyd.

I recently retro-fitted a floyd on a stet that had a vintage term design.  I had to shim the neck ( i used one of my business cards folded in 1/2) to get the correct string height.

A key point to remember is the front of the floyd should not be flush ion the guitar...just the back.

I have both and prefer the flush mount design.

 

[Cederick]

None of you both read my post, did you?  :doh:

It says in short words:

1. I want the Floyd resting on the body (NOT floating).
2. I know I have to shim the neck.

 

[Cagey]

If you order the Floyd bridge routing to be top-mounted, they won't angle the pocket. You can then install it bottomed out.

If you install a Floyd that's bottomed out, you've wasted a lotta money on bridge with capabilities that you're not using. You're better off with a Wilkinson-style design such as the Wilkinson itself, or the Fender unit, or a Schaller unit, etc.

 

[Cagey]

...when [the bridge] sits on top it need because the bridge is too high and the string action will be too low without the angled pocket.  The angled pocket raises the strings to the bridge height.

You mean the string action will be too high without the angled pocket. The angled pocket lowers them.

 

[fdesalvo]

Angled pockets and pizza cannot be ordered on a shimless torpedo plane.

None of you both read my post, did you?  :doh:

It says in short words:

1. I want the Floyd resting on the body (NOT floating).
2. I know I have to shim the neck.

 

[Cagey]

Only because shimless torpedo planes are invisible to radar/infrared, so the delivery guy can't find you.

 

[fdesalvo]

:sign13:

 

[aarontunes]

I wanna have a guitar with Floyd that's resting against the body.

But the angle makes the Floyd sit in the air so it's still floating, which makes me think "why even have the brideg floating when it could be recessed for no charge" (the angled pocket is $10) :dontknow:

So... Why can't the body be ordered with Floyd holes on top and NOT angled pocket? I would have to shim the neck, but I know that.

Is the angled part higher or lower than the regular pocket? Means; if it's higher, it could be simply routed down to a regular pocket, but it's angled lower in the upper end, it wont be possible.

Please help out here  :toothy10:

Let me rephrase your question, and you tell me if I'm understanding you correctly. You're saying "Warmoth allows me to order the Floyd rout two ways: 1) non-recessed with an angled pocket, or 2)recessed with a non-angled pocket. However I want to order it 'non-recessed, with a non-angled pocket'. I want to do this because I'm going to deck the trem against the body, so it will be sitting nearly as low as a recessed trem, but the angled pocket will prohibit me from doing this. Why won't you just let me do what I want? Why, Warmoth, why?"  :icon_scratch:

Did I sum up correctly?  :toothy12:

Here's the answer: If Warmoth were to offer the combination you suggest, people who don't understand how guitars work would order the wrong combination over, and over, and over. And over. And when they realize their mistake, they will ask us to pay for it. We know this from experience. For this reason, many of Warmoth's choice combinations are designed to essentially save people from themselves. We try to make it impossible for them to order a combination of options that will only lead to heartache, for them and us.

We know the "safe" choices we have created will sometimes be limiting to the people like yourself who do understand how guitars work, but when you're running a business and it's your own dollars on the line you have to choose the option that makes the most cents. [sic]

Here is what I would suggest: get the recessed Floyd rout, and set your Floyd to float. Then get a Tremel-No.http://www.tremol-no.com/ They are super easy to install, and you it's installed you'll have the best of all worlds. Your trem will have the low profile feel that you want, and you can set it to be decked (down only, a la EVH), fixed (no up or down), or floating (up and down), all with the quick twist of a thumbscrew.

I can tell you from experience they work really well.

 

[dmraco]

...when [the bridge] sits on top it need because the bridge is too high and the string action will be too low without the angled pocket.  The angled pocket raises the strings to the bridge height.

You mean the string action will be too high without the angled pocket. The angled pocket lowers them.

yep..sorry

 

[dmraco]

None of you both read my post, did you?  :doh:

It says in short words:

1. I want the Floyd resting on the body (NOT floating).
2. I know I have to shim the neck.

i did read your post...what i am saying with the angled pocked...you do not need to shim.

 

[Wolfie351]

So... Why can't the body be ordered with Floyd holes on top and NOT angled pocket?

Because you're asking for something that is not for it's intended use and won't work correctly out of the box.  For every one body they sold with that configuration, they'd probably have 100 customer returns from people who didn't understand what they were buying.  I know it's frustrating for a lot of people, but there is a reason why companies treat customers like they are grade-schoolers. 

Did you call and they denied your request?  If so, perhaps you could order a trem body but no bridge preference and do the rest yourself?

 

[Cederick]

If you order the Floyd bridge routing to be top-mounted, they won't angle the pocket. You can then install it bottomed out.

If you install a Floyd that's bottomed out, you've wasted a lotta money on bridge with capabilities that you're not using. You're better off with a Wilkinson-style design such as the Wilkinson itself, or the Fender unit, or a Schaller unit, etc.

Well, a Gotoh Floyd doesn't cost anymore than a decent Wilk-style or vintage trem but those doesn't double lock (which I want it to do)

Let me rephrase your question, and you tell me if I'm understanding you correctly. You're saying "Warmoth allows me to order the Floyd rout two ways: 1) non-recessed with an angled pocket, or 2)recessed with a non-angled pocket. However I want to order it 'non-recessed, with a non-angled pocket'. I want to do this because I'm going to deck the trem against the body, so it will be sitting nearly as low as a recessed trem, but the angled pocket will prohibit me from doing this. Why won't you just let me do what I want? Why, Warmoth, why?"  :icon_scratch:

Did I sum up correctly?  :toothy12:

Here's the answer: If Warmoth were to offer the combination you suggest, people who don't understand how guitars work would order the wrong combination over, and over, and over. And over. And when they realize their mistake, they will ask us to pay for it. We know this from experience. For this reason, many of Warmoth's choice combinations are designed to essentially save people from themselves. We try to make it impossible for them to order a combination of options that will only lead to heartache, for them and us.

We know the "safe" choices we have created will sometimes be limiting to the people like yourself who do understand how guitars work, but when you're running a business and it's your own dollars on the line you have to choose the option that makes the most cents. [sic]

Here is what I would suggest: get the recessed Floyd rout, and set your Floyd to float. Then get a Tremel-No.http://www.tremol-no.com/ They are super easy to install, and you it's installed you'll have the best of all worlds. Your trem will have the low profile feel that you want, and you can set it to be decked (down only, a la EVH), fixed (no up or down), or floating (up and down), all with the quick twist of a thumbscrew.

I can tell you from experience they work really well.

Hmmm, I guess you did  :icon_thumright:

Yep I know about Tremol-No, I even have one myself  :cool01:

But I was after a simple "non-tinkering" setup for this... Anyway, I would probably go for a regular recessed body and just get another Tremol-no, who knows if I wanna pull up the trem one fine day :icon_biggrin:

i did read your post...what i am saying with the angled pocked...you do not need to shim.

Yes, I would, but with the angled neck pocket I would have to shim it the other way around (the other end of the neck pocket to make the neck "straighter") so that the bridge can be lowered enough to rest against the body  :doh:

 

[stratter]

What's the point in a Floyd if it isn't floating?

 

[bagman67]

There are many who don't care for the float.  But even if it doesn't float, at least you get the fine tuners down at the bridge end of things.

 

[Cagey]

What's the point in a Floyd if it isn't floating?

Perzactly. Floyds are a major league pain in the ass to deal with, so if you aren't going to use the capabilities that the design allows for, why would anyone spend the extra money and tolerate the extra effort involved in having one? Setup is a cast iron bitch, although to be fair, you generally only have to do that once, but even ongoing maintenance like string changes is dramatically more difficult.

Back when Mr. Rose introduced his bridge design, there was no such thing as locking tuners or Graphtech/Wilkinson/LSR nuts. So he did the obvious thing and designed a locking nut. It's pointless now, but some haven't caught up with why the thing is there. If you dump the useless locking nut in favor of the better solutions, you don't need the extraneous "micro" tuners at the bridge, since you can use the tuners on the headstock to tune the thing the way God intended. 

Then, as far as "float" is concerned, I gotta say this. I bitch about Mr. Fender's mechanical aptitude quite a bit, but one thing he got right was using multiple springs to counter-balance the strings. Guys keep trying to eliminate springs and/or set them at odd angles in an effort to change the "feel" of the vibrato. It's just plain ol' silliness. Let's say a set of 9s has a pull of 115 pounds on at the bridge when tuned to standard open E tuning. That means if you want to float the bridge you need 115 pounds of counter-pull. It balances the bridge at some mid-point, plus or minus some consideration for leverage. Adjust spring tension until those forces equal, and you're done.

Thing is, spring and string pull is not linear. The farther you pull them, the harder they'll pull back. You get to a point where they're pulling back as hard as they can and won't stretch any more, at which point they break. So, if you want a repeatable return to neutral, you want to average the pull of several springs. That means install all 5, when provided. Instead of each spring (in the case of 3) having to be preset to pulling 38 pounds or so, already stretched to where they don't want to stretch any more, you have (in the case of 5) having to be preset to pulling 23 pounds. That's assuming they need to counter-balance 115 pounds. Your mileage may vary, depending on string gauge set. In any event, each spring is less stressed and the number of them means they will get averaged, which is why you get a more reliable return to neutral. The total pull is the same.

If you eliminate the locking nut and the micro-tuners, you've more or less eliminated the need for a Floyd Rose bridge. All that's left is the idea of using a two-point knife-edge fulcrum, which is highly reliable and repeatable. Fortunately, the vast majority of modern vibrato bridges offer that feature. You end up with a highly repeatable vibrato coupled with low maintenance. What could possibly be wrong with that?

 

[stratamania]

Another thing that's left is locking the string at the bridge. A non fine tuner Floyd or the version of it in the Guthrie Charvel, is there for that reason.

 

[Cederick]

Perzactly. Floyds are a major league pain in the ass to deal with, so if you aren't going to use the capabilities that the design allows for, why would anyone spend the extra money and tolerate the extra effort involved in having one? Setup is a cast iron bitch, although to be fair, you generally only have to do that once, but even ongoing maintenance like string changes is dramatically more difficult.

Back when Mr. Rose introduced his bridge design, there was no such thing as locking tuners or Graphtech/Wilkinson/LSR nuts. So he did the obvious thing and designed a locking nut. It's pointless now, but some haven't caught up with why the thing is there. If you dump the useless locking nut in favor of the better solutions, you don't need the extraneous "micro" tuners at the bridge, since you can use the tuners on the headstock to tune the thing the way God intended. 

Then, as far as "float" is concerned, I gotta say this. I bitch about Mr. Fender's mechanical aptitude quite a bit, but one thing he got right was using multiple springs to counter-balance the strings. Guys keep trying to eliminate springs and/or set them at odd angles in an effort to change the "feel" of the vibrato. It's just plain ol' silliness. Let's say a set of 9s has a pull of 115 pounds on at the bridge when tuned to standard open E tuning. That means if you want to float the bridge you need 115 pounds of counter-pull. It balances the bridge at some mid-point, plus or minus some consideration for leverage. Adjust spring tension until those forces equal, and you're done.

Thing is, spring and string pull is not linear. The farther you pull them, the harder they'll pull back. You get to a point where they're pulling back as hard as they can and won't stretch any more, at which point they break. So, if you want a repeatable return to neutral, you want to average the pull of several springs. That means install all 5, when provided. Instead of each spring (in the case of 3) having to be preset to pulling 38 pounds or so, already stretched to where they don't want to stretch any more, you have (in the case of 5) having to be preset to pulling 23 pounds. That's assuming they need to counter-balance 115 pounds. Your mileage may vary, depending on string gauge set. In any event, each spring is less stressed and the number of them means they will get averaged, which is why you get a more reliable return to neutral. The total pull is the same.

If you eliminate the locking nut and the micro-tuners, you've more or less eliminated the need for a Floyd Rose bridge. All that's left is the idea of using a two-point knife-edge fulcrum, which is highly reliable and repeatable. Fortunately, the vast majority of modern vibrato bridges offer that feature. You end up with a highly repeatable vibrato coupled with low maintenance. What could possibly be wrong with that?

I'm sorry Cagey, but you will probably never change my mind on the locking nut thing I really like the locking nut and the only way I would use a regular nut, is if I have a Kahler lock beyond it. hahaha

I made this partscaster for a friend (Cort body and my old Warmoth neck) with a Gotoh Floyd that rests on the body and it feels GREAT to play on. And the tuning stability is just as good as any floating FR. So yeah, I do have first-hand experience with a decked FR, and I really like it.
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Why do people think it's "wrong" if I want a Floyd that rests on the body (and with locking nut) while there are a lot of guitarists out there that use it a to like EVH and Kai Hansen for example.

Speaking of Hansen, how much more 80s can it get?!  arty07:

 

[Cagey]

Another thing that's left is locking the string at the bridge. A non fine tuner Floyd or the version of it in the Guthrie Charvel, is there for that reason.

Unless there's a mile of string past the bridge leading to the tailpiece, like you might see with some of Fender's designs or a Bigsby (amongst some others), I can't see locking the strings at the bridge. There just isn't enough string there to make difference as it stretches/relaxes. One exception might be with Tune-O-Matics or bridges like that where you have knife-edge saddles. With the wound strings, you can bump over a wind and change intonation pretty easily and audibly. Better off with roller saddles. Don't know why there aren't more of those out there, but your better manufacturers all provide them. Check out Schaller or Wilkinson, for instance.