Crimson guitars; I'm starting to give up

[Orpheo]

with Ben, its like this: no twitpic updates, no building.

I use the hashtag and '@' on twitter regularly to express my discomfort, to put it mildly I made a desicion, by the way. if the guitars arent finished before my birthday, I'm going over there to collect them. I'll be driving to France, go through the Channel, and drop him an (impromptu) visit, and grab my geeters and go. I'll finish them myself (and have a woman I know do the fretboards, if thats what has to be done at that point, that woman does GREAT inlay-jobs. I wonder what he would want from me when its all completed. wether or not he'd make me pay the last 35% of the sum. which, by the way, I find quite FUCKED if he did, considering 2.5 years waiting, and ongoing. I'd recon we'd be pushing 3.5 years when they're completed. FUN! (not)

 

[pabloman]

Damn. And to think I get pissed waiting for the brown truck. I feel really bad for you. Those are some great looking combinations there. When you do see him though just remember your manners and don't get all "pabloman" on him. Then the authorities would get involved. On the other hand I'm sure this constitutes theft or extortion or something. I love to see the little guys producing amazing quality custom stuff but I sure hate hear the stories of poor business practice and them biting off more than they can chew. Good luck with everything Orph

 

[OzziePete]

At least there seems to be some change in his attitude, Orph. Hopefully the dude realises he's got to get a moving on these guitars. :rock-on:

 

[Orpheo]

he's started working again! he didn't work for 3 days, cause he was ill. this boils down, again, to communication.

 

[kboman]

Let's not ascribe thoughts, ideas and opinions to people we don't know and have never met. It's not exactly polite.

From what I have gathered after following things for a few years, he's equally dedicated to his work and his family but not very experienced yet as a businessman. There's also a long string of outside businesses who have basically screwed him over (Sim's, for example - now where have I heard that before?), several times. Personally that would make me even more dedicated to deliver as promised, but I don't know the guy and one doesn't get the full story via Twitter feed. And again, it's a young guy who has not yet established a name for himself.

I hope the twins get done soon, they are very cool and it's been way too long since they were ordered.

 

[Graffiti62]

Do you live within a reasonable driving distance to the luthier?  There can be no bigger spook tactict that looking someone in the eye, face to face. I say suprise him at his shop, don't be a dick, but ask simple, but firm questions. After you've introduced yourself and he can collect his thoughts, ask him "Are they done,"  "Why not,"  and "How soon?"  Also, tell him that you feel that it would be fair to penalize him the remainder of his funding per week after a cerain amount of time, say four weeks after you meet him face to face, penalize $50 a week for going over time. My background is IT, and if I can't get to someone that day, I'm honest about it, and I tell them what's up, and work with them to get things straight. Emotions may run high, but you're only human, and you have to make sure that if you have paying customers, that you keep them in the loop, especially if they've paid you.

 

[Orpheo]

Do you live within a reasonable driving distance to the luthier?  There can be no bigger spook tactict that looking someone in the eye, face to face. I say suprise him at his shop, don't be a dick, but ask simple, but firm questions. After you've introduced yourself and he can collect his thoughts, ask him "Are they done,"  "Why not,"  and "How soon?"  Also, tell him that you feel that it would be fair to penalize him the remainder of his funding per week after a cerain amount of time, say four weeks after you meet him face to face, penalize $50 a week for going over time. My background is IT, and if I can't get to someone that day, I'm honest about it, and I tell them what's up, and work with them to get things straight. Emotions may run high, but you're only human, and you have to make sure that if you have paying customers, that you keep them in the loop, especially if they've paid you.

He lives in the UK, I live in the Netherlands. for (you) americans, thats like, 400 miles, so thats 'very much doable' (if you allow me to use some stigma's Americans have over here ) but for me, 400 miles is a bit too much

Anyway, we talked it through (over email) and made some new arrangements, with new promises. I'll keep you guys posted.

ps: the luthier has shown some interest in signing up on the board 'which should take a coupe of days' (??), so I'll be expecting his side of the story any time soon.

I don't want to bring him out of business, or have him file for bankruptcy. Why would that ever be my motive. And let me emphasize that I don't criticise his work; the guitar he has delivered so far plays very, very good (not as slick as I'd like it to be, but thats due to the heelconstruction and the semihollow-ness nature of the guitar, and I'm still figuring out which pickups will bring this sucker alive, the original pickups function very well as middle pickups in a les paul to give me quacky tones). It just takes...so....lonngggggg!!!!

 

[Cagey]

Hopefully, he'll get on the stick now.

I can easily understand how life and circumstances will get in the way of one's plans; lord knows it's happened to me. But, 2 1/2 years is a bit much. You could have a kid, get divorced, change jobs a couple/few times, move, have people die on you, suffer health problems, make some mistakes in construction, and still have time left over to build a guitar or two during a span like that.

Still, it's not hard to get discouraged/depressed with a project for various reasons and end up spending a lot of time playing with your mental blocks before you can make any progress. Meanwhile, you may not be down for the count, only that particular project is. Could be that's what's been happening here.

 

[Orpheo]

Hopefully, he'll get on the stick now.

I can easily understand how life and circumstances will get in the way of one's plans; lord knows it's happened to me. But, 2 1/2 years is a bit much. You could have a kid, get divorced, change jobs a couple/few times, move, have people die on you, suffer health problems, make some mistakes in construction, and still have time left over to build a guitar or two during a span like that.

Still, it's not hard to get discouraged/depressed with a project for various reasons and end up spending a lot of time playing with your mental blocks before you can make any progress. Meanwhile, you may not be down for the count, only that particular project is. Could be that's what's been happening here.

that could be indeed something that has popped up on occasion. I'll let Ben do the talking, I don't feel I'm at liberty to discuss the inside/insight of his company. Sure, I know that he has had some problems along the way for the last 3 years. and having 2 kids, having 2 employees run out on you, etc etc, can sure slow down the work and progress. and I know I'll be happy with these guitars, really. c'mon, they're build (almost) exactly how I want it (I actualy would like the starship inlay, one ship per fret., but thats not doable). but the lack of communication, slow building, and work on other guitars are the main culprits for my disillusionment.


ps: I'm very, very tired. my grammar and spelling is f*cked. don't mind it. you guys know what I mean. i hope

 

[Mor Paul]

I'd enjoy him being here, he makes some cool looking stuff.

 

[Wyliee]

I'd enjoy him being here, he makes some cool looking stuff.

It looks like someone from Crimson has joined.  I hope we can have a civil discourse here and look forward to hearing more about their builds.

 

[rapfohl09]

Hey Orph I was just checking out the workshop diary and saw some cross inlays getting worked on. Is that yours?

 

[OzziePete]

Let's not ascribe thoughts, ideas and opinions to people we don't know and have never met. It's not exactly polite.

From what I have gathered after following things for a few years, he's equally dedicated to his work and his family but not very experienced yet as a businessman. There's also a long string of outside businesses who have basically screwed him over (Sim's, for example - now where have I heard that before?), several times. Personally that would make me even more dedicated to deliver as promised, but I don't know the guy and one doesn't get the full story via Twitter feed. And again, it's a young guy who has not yet established a name for himself.

I hope the twins get done soon, they are very cool and it's been way too long since they were ordered.

Fair enough, kboman, and I have removed the post that was quite ascerbic upon his character. I was also incorrect in attributing another guitar company to one of their endorsees.

I can appreciate the fact these guitars probably have some fancy inlays etc. to go into them, so that is some work....but to wait 2.5 years & to have other later starting projects finish before Opheo's is finished, is a bit rich. I doubt that Orpheo is the type of guy to come a runnin' onto a forum and rant, when there isn't some good justification to do so. In fact I admire his patience in this matter.

Certainly, many a professional player could have made the company's life hell if they had been put into the same situation, many also would have walked and phoned their lawyer /end of.

Also, two wrongs don't make a right. If the company got screwed over by an outsourcing contractor, that is not any of their clients' fault, and their projects should not suffer delay. Primary concern should be upon seamless service delivery. Defaulting accounts are a part of business life unfortunately, and usually not discussed or mentioned publically.

 

[kboman]

I can appreciate the fact these guitars probably have some fancy inlays etc. to go into them, so that is some work....but to wait 2.5 years & to have other later starting projects finish before Opheo's is finished, is a bit rich. I doubt that Orpheo is the type of guy to come a runnin' onto a forum and rant, when there isn't some good justification to do so. In fact I admire his patience in this matter.

/.../

Also, two wrongs don't make a right. If the company got screwed over by an outsourcing contractor, that is not any of their clients' fault, and their projects should not suffer delay. Primary concern should be upon seamless service delivery. Defaulting accounts are a part of business life unfortunately, and usually not discussed or mentioned publically.

We are in agreement here :icon_thumright:

 

[Orpheo]

short word from my end:

those crosses are indeed for me and what's been said by Ozziepete is not a far cry from the truth (at least, as I see it, can't speak for someone else, can I? )

 

[swarfrat]

That may indeed be the case (unreliable vendors), but to me it looks like a tedious job that's already been mostly  paid for being made less than a priority by more straight forward work that represents new money. Did you spec anything weird (like Schaller parts only distributed in Germany) that would change the story?

 

[Orpheo]

That may indeed be the case (unreliable vendors), but to me it looks like a tedious job that's already been mostly  paid for being made less than a priority by more straight forward work that represents new money. Did you spec anything weird (like Schaller parts only distributed in Germany) that would change the story?

well, not really. The woods were bought REALLY fast. I mean, it wasnt as it took months to look for the woods. the parts were just gotoh, and I told him he could get 'm at warmoth's.

the inlay thats hard, but he did harder stuff earlier, and look at what he did yesterday; he cut out 20 crosses in a day! He said to me last september that he wasn't satisfied with the inlay job (and I agreed, but was hesitant to tell him, cause I didn't want to give him even more work). he wanted to change the fretboard + inlay. well, fine by me. but from the moment we decided upon the inlay and fretboardwood (snakewood artist grade) it took him 5 months to start doing the inlay, but doing all those other guitars nevertheless. Just look throught the diary. You'll see that he works on other (people's) guitars. thats fine, really. but then tell me 'ey dude, those other people are more important to me, yours is absolutely down the line'. whatever. but no, he tells/told me that he'd be cracking on with my twin-guitars, but he never fell through.

unreliable vendors, trainee's running away, 2 infants... its hard, I understand, really, I do. but to have seen no progress feels rotten

 

[Jusatele]

Go Ozzie

 

[OzziePete]

Go Ozzie

Me?  :toothy11:

I only expressed my views Justa....could've waded in with boots flyin' but chose to delete THAT post,lol. I'll be happy to sit back and watch Orpheo slowly reveal the awesomeness of these guitars to us all, from here in.

 

[crimson guitars]

I can't argue with anything that Orpheo has said here.. except that they really are very near completion.. but that's not the point.  His real issue is me not being able to live up to the timescales I told him I could, and also that my communication could be better.. and he is right!  I'd like to apologise, of course, and give you guys the real reasons and a potted history of me and what I've been trying to do.  Now this could read like a bunch of inane excuses but that is not what I'm going for here at all!  Firstly, and despite what Orpheo thinks, I've not completed many guitars ordered after his my customer list is in date order with no exceptions and everyone's guitar is late! (this is very hard to admit in public!!) I have 18 customers on the books right now and 20 guitars to build for them that haven't been started plus six or seven that will be finished in the next few weeks.. The experiment with a stock(ish) range has shown me how I can spend a few weeks working on the routing and major woodwork on 20 odd instruments and then move back to one on one work carving and finishing.. hopefully this working method will finally help me catch up with myself!!

Now, a character reference (obviously biased but conpletely true!) the real reason I'm so far behind myself is that in March 2008 I had to become a bankrupt, I had one guitar stolen and three seriously damaged by a courier company that had assured me I was insured up to 20000 per shipment as part of my contract.. turns out that was only for internal shipping and these were off to the states and Italy, I also had a nasty run in with 2 UK finishers who were just setting up, one screwed up 6 finishes so badly I had to completely redo them.. at my own expense of course, and the second did a runner.. he still has four of my guitars in his shed somewhere!!!  The bank charges were my fault, of course, and burying your head in the sand is not a good idea in this situation.. anyway, in total the government wrote off nearly £40000 of my debts.. to institutions and one of the suppliers who screwed me over.. in the process I only got to keep my machines and a little timber I had in stock but what I did not do was write off the 23 customers whose deposits had been lost in the fiasco.  It would have been easy to change the company name and screw them all over but I ended up building all the guitars, basically at cost price and taking a lot of time!  Now, the twins.. since starting (and here are the excuses!!) I've had two children (and not a lot of sleep), a broken foot, three web designers (who stole or conned me out of around £6500) another sub-standard finisher and four apprentices.. One of you mentioned getting people in to help? I spent almost half my time over the last two years trying to train these people, one stole about a grand of kit and did a runner, one developed a really really serious back problem, one was useless and my great hope left before christmas because he couldn't face the commute any more! I've wasted more of my time trying to find ways to build guitars faster than I can imagine,  and thus fallen furthur behind!  I've also spent most evenings learning how to build websites, rather well I think..

The kicker came mid last year when I took stock and realised that the quality of what I was delivering was just not there, I rebuilt two guitars from scratch and, including the twins, another four need partial rebuilds, just so that the end result is as good as it is possible for me to make them.. more months lost!  It is true that I'm working on a semi-mass produced range right now, during the worst of the economic downturn we nearly folded three times just through cash flow and some investors agreed to shore us up so long as I build these 20 guitars.. it is much faster to build them this way though and I am doing my best to go half stock and half custom with my time..  This is getting a bit long but heres the end..ish, I tweet throughout the day and it only takes about 30 seconds a time as opposed to uploading the photo's every night which used to take half an hour a day.. and I do this so that everyone can see exactly what I'm working on and when.. I really am trying for total transparency here, hence this post.. I am not a spoilt rich boy who want's to play at luthiery, I'm a 30 year old father of two who has spent 8 years slowly learning how to build world class guitars and also,  very slowly, how to actually run a business.  I wish that I could have done this without pissing some people off, and it would have been nice to keep an apprentice or two, but here we are.  Orpheus' guitars were a day away from finishing when I told him I wanted to redo the inlays and they are part of the five custom guitars I'm working on right now and will be done in a few weeks.  If any of you have any suggestions (or want to come and manage the business side of things for me!!) feel free to get in contact.. I will try and follow this thread and answer anything you ask.. no doubt this post will give you a lot of fodder, or ammunition.. The last thing I want to say about the Orpheo's guitars is they scare the hell out of me, the inlays in particular, these instruments have challenged me from the start and I should have just got on with them instead of over-thinking the processes like I have..