Cover band frustrations

[KaiserSoze]

So i joined a group and we mainly do covers of a pretty wide variety.  Country/folk to classic rock to 80s and 90's.  I've always been an amp-with-pedals kind of guy but the idea of a multi effects with presets sounds really attractive to me.  Moving from song to song with my current rig is a pain in the ass. 
My main amp is an old Tech21 Trademark 60 which has done very well for me. I basically stay on the clean channel and use pedals but as I said, its a pain.
Knowing that I have zero experience in multi-effects units and I'm not willing to spend a months salary, what units do you like for live playing.?

 

[Sp4zRX]

I was using a Line 6 M13. It's got some good sounding effects. However, you said you will be running drive/distortion pedals into a clean amp for your dirt and the overdrives/distortions are its weak point. Although if you can A/B the M13 with your current favorite ODs you can actually get some pretty decent sounds and get pretty close to what your current pedals sound like, if thats what you want. Most of what you think you hear that sounds "better" with your analog goes away in a band mix. The thing with the ODs is that they are real sensitive to your tweaks. Most analog pedals its hard to get a really bad sound. With the M13 its easy to get bad sounds but at the same time, if you spend time tweaking it you can get some really great tones. All the other effects like delay/reverb/modulation in the unit sound great.

All in all, if simplicity a priority, the the M13 is a good choice and won't break the bank.

Another option to consider is the TC Electronics Nova System. The other guitar player in our band has that one and it sounds great! The Drives are definitely superior to the M13.

 

[AndyG]

Moving from song to song with my current rig is a pain in the ass. 

I too play in a cover band (bass ... but I have more pedals than one of our guitar players!)
There are 2 things to keep in mind.  If you're not trying to be a true jukebox, the guitar tones you use can be an "average approximation" of what they should be.
The other thing that we look at is the order of songs in the set lists.  We have a keyboard player that needs to change patches for certain songs, so anything where he is using similar sounds gets grouped together, and the talking breaks are where he can change patches.  This can be a challange, because certain tunes don't flow together well.  It took us a while to find the right balance.

I know that didn't REALLY answer your question, but hopefully it helps.    :glasses10:

 

[KaiserSoze]

Thanks.  That helps.  I guess what I am after are song-specific presets that can sound fairly close to the original songs.  Our set list is fluid so I may be doing a U2 song after some Clash or Dire Straits, so I have to be able to change quickly and not be fiddling with my pedals.  I don't need any super exotic weird effects but still want good quality tones.  Its more a convenience thing and keeping the set moving.  I'm sure I'm the first guy to be running into this issue….

 

[stratamania]

How about a Boss GT100. They are relatively simple to use and the FW2.0 has just been released.

 

[MikeW]

Are you keeping the Trademark 60? From looking at the specs for it you can use a multi-effects unit in the loop (use the 4CM to hook it up) and you'd be okay. You'll be limited in what you should expect for patches unless you're willing to go all-in with the ARMD MIDI Converter too.

http://www.tech21nyc.com/products/amps/guitar/trademark60.html

What I mean is that if you really want to get to a spot where you're just hitting one button and getting amp channel changes and effects presets, you'll probably have to go with some sort of MIDI-enabled system. if that's the case then either the TC Electronic G System or the Boss GT100 will do what you want.

If you don't want to go that far, then a good multi-effects unit through your effects loop will get you pretty close. You'll still need to have the footswitch for changing the amp's channel, but you can run either the Boss GT100 or the TC Electronic Nova System that way.

I've got the G System and it's really really really good. I control my amp through MIDI and have all my effects minus wah (you can pry my CryBaby from my cold dead fingers) running from there. I've got three presets set up that include channel changes on the amp, and presets for each of the effects. One touch and I'm where I need to go. Plus I've got three of the buttons programmed with CC commands so that I can hit a preset for the clean channel where I've got chorus, delay and boost enabled, and then get to a good crunch by hitting one more button to change to the gain channel on the amp. Tap, Tap and I'm there. The cost for the G is a bit prohibitive (~1K US used) but it was worth it to me for the flexibility I'm getting out of it.

The TC Electronic Nova System has most of the same effects as the G System and can run in front of the amp or out of your effects loop and is much more affordable. But, you lose the ability to do patches and MIDI for amp channel changes with the Nova.

I think from what you said KS, that you're going to want something that isn't just effects though. The G System and the Boss GT100 will do that for you. If cost is a limiting factor, then go for the Boss GT100.

 

[AndyG]

Another option (if you REALLY like the pedals you have) would be something like the Octaswitch.

All of your pedals stay on all the time, and you just program the ones you want in the loop.

This obviously won't work if you need to change the settings of the pedals ... different delay times for different songs, for example.

 

[KaiserSoze]

Mike. I am keeping the trademark amp. I was planning on setting the clean channel to a flat eq and just using a processor for effects and presets. It does have a loop but what is a 4CM?  I could use a gt100 or an me80 in the loop. Is there anything wrong with that approach?

 

[Jusatele]

I went multi effect 2 years ago
then I started programing up all those different sings and when I played out it seemed I was never satisfied and alwys tweaking according to what the room we were in was like
so I took a different approach
each guitar has 2 settings stored for it
one brite and one crunchy
now I just dial up for the guitar
After all, it as pointed out to me that most people you are playing for do not have enough of a devloped ear to even know if you are in the ball park.

 

[Tom]

I've been multi effects rack mount for years, and like you play in a cover band. The idea for me was to do what you are talking about, tweak each patch to match each specific song ... but I'm just lazy I guess, because despite my good intentions I just have 5-6 core tones and use those for all cover songs. It has to be some really unique song sound for me to try and duplicate it... but that's me.

I have the Digitech GSP1101 with the corresponding Control 2 foot switch. You can find the processor on e-bay for $300 - $350. Maybe a couple hundred for the foot switch.

http://digitech.com/en-US/products/gsp1101

There are much better systems available (Axe Fx II on the high end for example), but if you're not looking to break the bank, this one gives you over 30 amp models, a bunch of cab sims and all the effects you need. And for the price, it's hard to beat. Very easy to use, and never let me down live.

The attached pic is my system. What you see there is the Digitech GSP1101, and SLA1 power amp. These take up only 2 rack spaces, and I house them in a small easy to carry rack. The cab is one of the old Marshall 4 x 10 from the 80's (not made any more) ... smaller than a 4 x 12 and very light (easy to carry). Then there's the foot switch. As you already have the amp, you would just need to consider the processor and the foot switch.

Anyway - it works for me, and I think it's great for live cover songs. Certainly worth considering when the price point is important.

 

[stratamania]

4CM or four cable method is this.

Cable 1 guitar to Multi FX 
Cable 2 multi FX FX send to Guitar amp input
cable 3 Guitar amp FX send to Multi FX FX return.
Cable 4 multi FX to amp FX return.

What this effectively has done is placed the amps preamp into the loop of the MultiFX which means you can now run overdrives and distortion into the front of the amp and time based effects such as reverb and delay in the amps loop.

This simulates how you would tend to use separate pedals some in front of the amp and some in the loop of the amp.

With a multi FX that also has amp models with the above setup you could bypass the Multi FX FX loop block and use a model of a preamp in the multi FX a instead of the amps preamp.

Here's a good explanation on this video.
http://youtu.be/3ZtY8bS-GQ0

 

[KaiserSoze]

Great info.  Thanks guys.  The four cable thing sounds like a good way to go with the right processor.  There are a couple pedals that would still like to use in front of the amp. 

 

[stratamania]

Don't forget if you use a Multi FX there is nothing stopping you putting a Wah pedal between the guitar and multi FX input and then an overdrive pedal between it and the amp input for example. You can combine them in all sorts of ways.

 

[MikeW]

I could use a gt100 or an me80 in the loop. Is there anything wrong with that approach?

Nothing wrong with that approach at all. It's a simple way to get yourself up and running. From there, once you have your effects dialed in the way you want them, you can experiment with the 4 Cable Method to see if you can get better results.

4CM or four cable method is this.

Cable 1 guitar to Multi FX 
Cable 2 multi FX FX send to Guitar amp input
cable 3 Guitar amp FX send to Multi FX FX return.
Cable 4 multi FX to amp FX return.

Apologies for throwing out the 4CM lingo there. I should read my posts before posting! The 4 Cable Method is exactly what stratamania has listed here.

Since you're planning on keeping the Trademark, you should consider hooking it up like stratamania suggests, with the 4CM. This places the modulation and delay effects in the effects loop, where they won't have adverse effects on your signal as it goes through the preamp. As I understand it, the Boss GT100 will work very well in this set up.

Don't forget if you use a Multi FX there is nothing stopping you putting a Wah pedal between the guitar and multi FX input and then an overdrive pedal between it and the amp input for example.

And definitely this! I put my CryBaby before the G System in this exact set up.

After all, it as pointed out to me that most people you are playing for do not have enough of a devloped ear to even know if you are in the ball park.

The thing to remember is this: most people, when listening to a band are thinking 1) does it sound good? 2) Do I recognize the song? If the answer to both of those is 'yes', then you're there. It's way more important to get a good sound than it is to exactly emulate what is heard on the recording.

Given that you're keeping the Trademark and that you're primarily using the clean channel, IMHO the Boss GT100 will probably be your best bet. It has amp modeling so you can get the clean-crunchy-distored sounds you want, good, solid well-voiced effects, plus the flexibility of hooking it up with the 4CM so that effects are in the right order.

 

[KaiserSoze]

An update/ short review…
For something like this I prefer to buy new and the over-$500 solutions seemed like too much for me or I would prob have bought a GT100. Instead I grabbed a Boss ME80 to see if an MFX pedal is what will make me happy. $300 is comfortable and if I really feel the need I'll upgrade later.  I picked it up last night and just spent a couple hours with it.

I'll try it through my effects loop but for the first run-thru I just plugged it in the front of my amp.  First noticed how easy it is to use and program.  Very intuitive and built like a tank.  I only had to look at a couple things in the manual.  It took about an hour to program two banks of patches that will fit a bunch of our songs really well.  I also programmed a bank of patches just for my strat and a bank of humbucker patches for my second guitar.  Super easy.  Granted, they are pretty simple patches all told but they sound really nice.

Quick complaint.  Take my advice and skip the factory patches.  Ugh.  Not one that has any practical use.  It sucks that I can't erase them and use the banks for my own stuff.

Anyway, to my ears it first sounded really trebly and harsh in a lot of settings.  I finally cranked the bass on my amp and the sounds filled out really nicely.  I was able to get some really great classic clean sounds and the reverb, chorus, and delays sound good.  With touches of overdrive or fuzz and the amp sims, I have about all I need.  I don't need much more than the classic-rock range of gain so the high-gain or metal settings don't mean much to me.  Can't comment on those.

First impression is that its super easy to use, has great sounds for me, and seems rugged.  It's also going to eat a lot of hours of my life but I'm looking forward to band practice.  Thanks guys for the advice.

 

[Cagey]

Quick complaint.  Take my advice and skip the factory patches.  Ugh.  Not one that has any practical use.  It sucks that I can't erase them and use the banks for my own stuff.

That's surprisingly common. Outside of the Axe Fx, I don't think I've ever owned a multi-effect device where the factory presets were worth a tinker's damn. They're always way over the top, as if you wouldn't know reverb was present unless it was cranked to 11, or delays to 500ms, etc. It's like walking into a stripper bar when you're expecting a Victoria's Secret fashion show.

 

[SustainerPlayer]

Yes. That ME-80 board is really impressive. Haven't really used all my pedals since getting that.

 

[stratamania]

Have fun with the ME80  ccasion14:

 

[MikeW]

Quick complaint.  Take my advice and skip the factory patches.  Ugh.  Not one that has any practical use.  It sucks that I can't erase them and use the banks for my own stuff.

That's surprisingly common. Outside of the Axe Fx, I don't think I've ever owned a multi-effect device where the factory presets were worth a tinker's damn. They're always way over the top, as if you wouldn't know reverb was present unless it was cranked to 11, or delays to 500ms, etc. It's like walking into a stripper bar when you're expecting a Victoria's Secret fashion show.

This. Even though the G System factory patches are usable, they're typically way more effect-laden than I like. I tend to think of them as the manufacturer saying 'Hey! Look what this can do!' than actually being of real-world use.

Congrats on the ME80. Sounds like you're off to a good start with it. Let us know how it works out.

 

[KaiserSoze]

Been fun so far. I'm still in the "find what works" phase.  Running it in the effects loop sounds great but I seem to lose the overdrives quite a bit while the modulation effects do well. So far my fave way to use it is to disable the amp sims and use the effects with the amps natural sounds.  That way seems to keep the amps warmth and the drives still sound good.  So, off to spend a few hours tinkering