bye bye kahler, hello floyd?

[Torment Leaves Scars]

Kahler has a far smoother system, more stable for palm muting, no rear routing.  It's SO much better!

perhaps better for you but not for me. I like floyds. Tighter tone and bettrr tuning stability. And... I have no palm mute issues

Must be the operator, not the Floyd...

Love my Floyds!  The only positive things I can say about a Kahler are...

1. The "lighter" operation.

2. I don't own a guitar with one!

 

[Cagey]

Kahler's cam actuator does seem to give a mechanical advantage that makes them easier to operate, but it comes at the cost of an unreliable return to neutral, which you don't have with the any of the knife-edge two-point fulcrum designs such as used with the Floyds, Wilkinsons, Schallers, et al.

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

Kahler's cam actuator does seem to give a mechanical advantage that makes them easier to operate, but it comes at the cost of an unreliable return to neutral, which you don't have with the any of the knife-edge two-point fulcrum designs such as used with the Floyds, Wilkinsons, Schallers, et al.

Exactly, hence the reason when doing dive-bombs I had to give it a slight nudge upwards for it to return to tune.

My Schaller Floyd is great but the tension is very tight; something that makes usage more difficult than I prefer, but no matter how much I abuse it, and it's quite a lot, it ALWAYS returns to tune.  Now, snap a string and hope you have a backup guitar...

 

[AprioriMark]

I've never had problems with a Kahler; I used to have one on a 70s strat I gigged with a lot.  I totally get where the divebomb wankers don't enjoy it though.  For floyd people, there's just no going back.  Floyds tend to piss me off because I'm a hardtail/bigsby guy at heart, though I see why certain styles of players like them.

-Mark

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

I've never had problems with a Kahler; I used to have one on a 70s strat I gigged with a lot.  I totally get where the divebomb wankers don't enjoy it though.  For floyd people, there's just no going back.  Floyds tend to piss me off because I'm a hardtail/bigsby guy at heart, though I see why certain styles of players like them.

-Mark

I wouldn't say I'm a "dive-bomb wanker," per se, but I sure like to abuse the hell outta the tremolo, and I just absolutely love to "flutter" for some reason.  :help: :headbang1:

Don't get me wrong, Floyds aren't all giggles for me.  I hate changing the strings, hate the fine-tuning, and hate that it takes a lot of adjusting and precisely re-setting things up, especially when swapping string gauges.  :tard:

 

[MikeW]

... I hate changing the strings, hate the fine-tuning, and hate that it takes a lot of adjusting and precisely re-setting things up, especially when swapping string gauges.  :tard:

This is exactly why I went with a Wilkinson and locking tuners on my latest build. All the stability and functionality of the Floyd, but with the ease of setup of a standard bridge. 15 minutes and I've changed strings and got the thing completely back in tune. Awesome.

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

... I hate changing the strings, hate the fine-tuning, and hate that it takes a lot of adjusting and precisely re-setting things up, especially when swapping string gauges.  :tard:

This is exactly why I went with a Wilkinson and locking tuners on my latest build. All the stability and functionality of the Floyd, but with the ease of setup of a standard bridge. 15 minutes and I've changed strings and got the thing completely back in tune. Awesome.

I'm not real familiar with the Wilkinson.

 

[Cagey]

I'm not real familiar with the Wilkinson.

Once you use one, you stop using Floyds. The advantages are much simpler setup, no locking nut, no fine tuners, faster string changes using standard strings and substantially lower cost. All that, while staying in tune and getting a reliable return to neutral with a wide range of operation. It's all the good points of a Floyd with none of the bad, just not from Floyd.

 

[Jumble Jumble]

Is it any better or different to the modern Fender 2-point system?

 

[AutoBat]

The primary difference is that the Wilkinson system uses locking saddles for intonation, which should be a little better than the old screw with a spring around it setup.

 

[Steve_Karl]

I've also never had tuning problems with the one Kahler I own.
It's also way more articulate and controllable than a Floyd, for me, all the way down to just the arm being easier to hold.

There was a loss of tone, switching from the stock G&L wang bar to the Kahler.
That's my only complaint.

But now that I've experienced the Wilkinson VS-100 I think it's the only one I'll ever purchase in the future.

No Floyds here anymore.
Just 1 Kahler and 1 VS-100.

 

[Jumble Jumble]

Better for tuning stability? Or just the ubiquitous "sustain"?

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

I'm not real familiar with the Wilkinson.

Once you use one, you stop using Floyds. The advantages are much simpler setup, no locking nut, no fine tuners, faster string changes using standard strings and substantially lower cost. All that, while staying in tune and getting a reliable return to neutral with a wide range of operation. It's all the good points of a Floyd with none of the bad, just not from Floyd.

So how does it stay in tune without a locking nut?

 

[Cagey]

Locking tuners such as Schallers, Sperzels, Gotohs, Grovers, etc. Everybody makes 'em now because you should be using them even if you don't use a vibrato bridge. Locking tuners, a well-made nut and get rid of the string trees and you'll have a much easier time keeping any guitar in tune.

 

[Cagey]

I should probably add that if you're not familiar with locking tuners, they don't do much good if they're not used properly. I can't tell you how many guitars I've seen with them installed where the owner still wraps 2 or 3 rounds of string on the peg. Defeats the purpose entirely. Dive the vibrato, and the string unwinds a bit on the peg, then doesn't come back. Stretch the string, and the winds tighten up on the peg and don't go back. Either way, you're out of tune.

The thing to do is align the string hole in the peg so it's perpendicular to the neck, pull the string through until it's taut, then lock it. Tune it up, cut off the excess and you're good to go. It's much faster and easier than using old-fashioned tuners, plus you stay in tune.

 

[DangerousR6]

I seriously don't get all the Floyd bashing, I mean I have a whole room full of Floyds and have no problems at all. Ya there's some extra bits that go with it, but its still the same as any other floating bridge. I guess maybe I just took the time to learn and understand them... :dontknow:

 

[Jumble Jumble]

Well, they're not the same as any other floating bridge are they? They're the only ones where you have to cut the ball off the string, the only one that needs a locking nut and so therefore fine tuners, the only ones that don't have a sensible way of setting intonation, the only ones that look like you've got a straight-6 hot rod engine mounted on the guitar body...

That's not to say I think the bashing is justified. I really think the operation, and therefore the sound, is different with a Floyd than with any other type of trem. Instantly identifiable. I have one guitar with a Floyd and that's all I need, but I wouldn't be without it. It's definitely more hassle than my AmStd Strats though.

 

[DangerousR6]

Well, they're not the same as any other floating bridge are they? They're the only ones where you have to cut the ball off the string, the only one that needs a locking nut and so therefore fine tuners, the only ones that don't have a sensible way of setting intonation, the only ones that look like you've got a straight-6 hot rod engine mounted on the guitar body...

That's not to say I think the bashing is justified. I really think the operation, and therefore the sound, is different with a Floyd than with any other type of trem. Instantly identifiable. I have one guitar with a Floyd and that's all I need, but I wouldn't be without it. It's definitely more hassle than my AmStd Strats though.

I've got several of the new Floyds that are the Fast loader, no more need to cut off the ball of the strings. Intonation is no more a pain than any other bridge, just need a hex key wrench instead of a screw driver. They don't have to have a locking nut, that's only for the fine tuners, which I might add to me is a positive over other bridges. :icon_biggrin:

And speaking of hot rod engines on a guitar... :laughing7:

 

[AutoBat]

intonation difficult? Get The Key!

need to carry tools to change parts? Get a new arm!

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

I seriously don't get all the Floyd bashing, I mean I have a whole room full of Floyds and have no problems at all. Ya there's some extra bits that go with it, but its still the same as any other floating bridge. I guess maybe I just took the time to learn and understand them... :dontknow:

No problems with any of my Floyds staying in tune.  I just think they're a pain to putz around with.  Other than that, I love my Floyds and won't own another electric guitar without one.