Boat Neckers & Fat Backers: Need opinions!

[fdesalvo]

I'm playing lead in a Alt/Rock band and have noticed that thinner necks cause my thumb to cramp and hand to fatigue.  At the same time, fatter contours as found on some acoustics cause the same problem with chording.  The latter is probably due to having to apply more pressure to get those fat acoustic strings down.  I'm going to attach some youtube clips to give you an idea of my style- please feel free to fast-forward to the solos and give me your honest opinion if a fatter profile would inhibit this type of playing.  I am not very technical and am certainly not what I would consider an example of a great lead player, so forgive any poor technique.

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQe5Cua8s2M[/youtube]
No solo- lead hook throughout verses

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2C3m5PoCaQs[/youtube]
Solo at: 3:00

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR4v9Nkhi6U[/youtube]
Solo at: 2:55

Thanks for any advice or knowledge.

 

[Cagey]

If both fat and thin necks make your thumb cramp up, it's not likely the neck is the problem. You're probably just too tense, and working too hard. You need to calm down. Take some Xanax or Valium or something <grin>

 

[fdesalvo]

Thanks for the constructive feedback.  My SG has a slimmer U-profile that doesn't cause problems and I'm positive that my fret hand isn't the culprit, as I've tried a viariety of techniques.  I'm not sure you read this from my original post: "The latter is probably due to having to apply more pressure to get those fat acoustic strings down..."

 

[Cagey]

The only time I've ever had thumb pain problems, it's been because the guitar wasn't set up high enough. Backing up a notch or two on the strap raised the guitar enough that I didn't need to have my hand at an unnatural angle to the neck in order to reach everywhere I needed to. The wrist needs to be straight, or very nearly so. Watch Clapton or someone like him play. They don't have their guitars hanging down around their knees like some kind of punk rock icehole. Although, from the videos, it doesn't look like yours is hanging too low, either. Just something to think about.

Something else to consider, although it's probably unlikely, is you may be dehydrated or have imbalanced electrolytes. If your electrolyte levels get too low (usually the potassium) or you get dehydrated from drinking excessive amounts of caffeine or alcohol, one of the first symptoms will be cramping in strange places. Usually it starts in the legs, but any muscle that gets overexerted is liable to tense up. It might be worth it to chug some Gatorade now and then, or lighten up on the beer, coffee, or soft drinks.

Or, it could be a few thousandths of an inch difference in neck thickness, but does it sound right that putting 10lbs of pressure on something that's 1.2" thick vs. 1.3" thick should stress you into cramps?

 

[fdesalvo]

That's what I needed.  The electrolyte thing could be an issue.  I've also learned to to not work out within 3 days of a show haha.  My wrist position is pretty much neutral, as well.  Thanks man.

 

[BigBeard]

Here is the beauty with a boatneck or fat back type neck:

If you think it is too thick, all it takes is a little sandpaper to make it thinner

 

[fdesalvo]

Great idea, BB.  The round back looks like the best starting point.

 

[kboman]

It's so hard to see in just a small video like that, but generally, as has been said - be as relaxed as possible and don't wear the guitar at knee height. This helps alot, especially how high you wear the guitar.

Attached is a picture of how I wear my guitars: pretty high up, and the thumb never leaves the back of the neck, ever. My hand simply does not hurt from guitar playing*.


*Disclaimer: I'm currently very much out of practice so right now it probably would if I sat a couple of hours...

 

[fdesalvo]

Thanks, man.  I have to wear mine lower- the height I play at is very comfy.

I just pulled the trigger on a neck:

Warmoth, Conversion Angled 24 3/4", Right Handed Handed, Q-Sawn Maple, Jet Black Ebony Fretboard, 1 11/16" Nut Width, Fatback, 6105, Gotoh/Grover (13/32", 11/32") Tuner Ream, 22 frets, Straight 12" Radius, Mother Of Pearl Dots Inlay, GraphTech Black TUSQ XL, No Finish, 24-3/4 in. Conversion Scale, Standard 4 Bolt

To be honest, the shoulders are perfect on the Fatback.  All of the other profiles have a very shallow shoulder angle, which is part of what I hate about this wizard neck.  I can easily flatten the back out a little if it's not perfect as is. I have the 6130s on my current wizard and want something just a bit taller to better dig in to bends- looks like these are gonna work out. Thanks everyone.

 

[-CB-]

Here is the beauty with a boatneck or fat back type neck:
If you think it is too thick, all it takes is a little sandpaper to make it thinner

REALLY bad idea. 

The reason is, when you change the profile of the neck, you also change the stresses in the wood, risking a neck that would be better suited with large lumps of salt embedded in its golden brown surface - IOW, a pretzel.

 

[BigBeard]

Here is the beauty with a boatneck or fat back type neck:
If you think it is too thick, all it takes is a little sandpaper to make it thinner

REALLY bad idea. 

The reason is, when you change the profile of the neck, you also change the stresses in the wood, risking a neck that would be better suited with large lumps of salt embedded in its golden brown surface - IOW, a pretzel.

You think?  I honestly can't see taking a few thousands off of the back of a neck as a problem.  Really the truss rod is in the same place in the neck regardless of it's back profile.  Now  I do see a problem with thinning it out unevenly.  You could actually take off layers of wood in some places, and not others which could  pretzel it up. 

I guess I should have heeded a word of caution.  I mean a couple of thousands of an inch, not taking the belt sander to it!!!  I think this isn't a bad idea for someone that needs a slightly thinner boatneck or roundback.  They are really monsters.  Imagine a louisville slugger cut in half with a fretboard on top!!

Personally I love my boatneck, but I have some pretty big hands and fat fingers (my wedding band is like a 14 or 15) so I like the 1 3/4" nut width and the boatneck.  I have a hard time with thinner necks especially with bar chords.  But I wouldn't be afraid to thin the back down or knock off a little of the 'point' in the middle if I was having trouble with it being too thick.  Now I'm not trying to say to go take a boatneck and make a wizard out of it,  but the difference between their thickest neck and thinnest neck is .0265" boat or vee compared to wizard is roughly 1/4".  The difference between a boat and a standard thin is .200" or 13/64".  What I'm trying to point out is that .010 to .015 of an inch off the back of a neck isn't going to really throw off the feng shui of the neck THAT much.

I would say that you should try for the closest thing that you think is good.  If anything I said, if you aren't sure and aren't afraid of going over the back of the neck as evenly as possible (meaning no 50 grit belts on the sander!!!!) with sandpaper, go to the next size larger in profile and go over it. Lightly, bro, lightly

But with all that I said, take what =CB= said to heart also, unforseen things can happen with wood.  Remember it was harvested from a living thing, so each one is different. 

 

[-CB-]

Yah, I think.

Looking at the drawings, its 140/1000'ths and 30/1000'ths respectively. 

I gave a warning, whoever owns the neck... its theirs to mess with as they see fit. 

In the past, Warmoth has also warned against re profiling necks.

 

[fdesalvo]

Thanks, guys.  I'm thinking the Fatback is going to be pretty close to that I'm wanting in stock form.  My buddy had an older 70's Strat that had a huge U-shaped neck that I loved.  It was very comfy.  At the same time, I can't see taking a bit off the back being a huge deal; I'm just talking about flattening it slightly if need be- def not .25"!  Haha Id use those flexible sponge/sanding blocks- nothing that requires voltage!

 

[Dan025]

well cb makes a valid point, i dont foresee it becoming a pretzel but there is some possibility of it needing a fret level or in a really bad case a refret depending on how much you need to take off and the piece of wood yourself. i've seen a painted maple neck twist and warp like question mark and ive seen raw maple as strait as an arrow. you really never know. but that wouldnt stop me from gettin out some sandpaper either. but i'm willing to take risks. even with perfectly good warmoth parts, but that's just me.

 

[BigBeard]

Yah, I think.

Looking at the drawings, its 140/1000'ths and 30/1000'ths respectively. 

I gave a warning, whoever owns the neck... its theirs to mess with as they see fit.   

In the past, Warmoth has also warned against re profiling necks.

Hey CB I know you know your shit, that's why I'm not really gonna argue the point with you.  Somebody else, maybe  :icon_thumright:

Thanks, guys.  I'm thinking the Fatback is going to be pretty close to that I'm wanting in stock form.  My buddy had an older 70's Strat that had a huge U-shaped neck that I loved.  It was very comfy.  At the same time, I can't see taking a bit off the back being a huge deal; I'm just talking about flattening it slightly if need be- def not .25"!  Haha Id use those flexible sponge/sanding blocks- nothing that requires voltage!

This is kind of what I meant about playing with the back of the neck.  I meant that if you had a 'Vee' or a boat, that you could knock off the high spot a little to round it out a bit.  I never wanted someone to construe that they should take 80 grit to their neck.  I meant like a what this guy is mentioning, just giving her a once over or two with a flexiblock maybe 150 grit to slightly smooth it down a little.  Basicaly what I was recommending is slight tweak, not a re-contour.  I think that would be disasterous if you really tried to thin one down.  Also I truly think that a couple swipes with the sandpaper and seeing a little dust coming off will give the player the psychological effects of having a thinner neck, just like when you see a kid in a honda civic with a weed eater muffler on it and it makes him feel like his car goes 50 MPH faster and his new shiny $500 muffler added 325 horsepower to his 4 banger!!!  You'd be amazed how much someones perception changes things.

Ok guy keep us posted on what you decide to do   :icon_tongue:

 

[fdesalvo]

^ lol u got it. I ordered the neck tonight so I reckon it'll be a while. I'll be pestering the finish guys about poly next!

 

[AprioriMark]

Look into Alexander Technique.  It's helped my playing on every instrument.  Learning to let go of unnecessary stress in how you hold your body and how you execute your playing will make it all sooooo much more enjoyable for you.

-Mark

 

[fdesalvo]

I really appreciate that, man.