Blackbird Telecaster: Neck work in progress...

[BigSteve22]

Let me start by saying "Thank You" to Kevin for supplying me with a couple of beautiful, pre radiused, .047" stainless frets.  :yourock:

Now let me say my previously posted, mathematical evaluation of my nut situation, is largely out he window. It was based on the "fact" that the neck was fretted with .047" frets. But while going over things today, before starting to work on the ZeroGlide, I realized the installed SS6230 frets are .043", not .047"! That's the bad news. Good news is that the .047" fret supplied by Cagey is exactly what I needed to make things sit right!

When the .043" was in place at the zero position, I needed to keep the action higher than the .040" - 050" I like. Additionally, the low fret combined with the higher action, caused the high "E" to buzz behind the nut due to a lack of break angle.

With the .047" in place, I was able to set 12th fret action to about .040" on the high "E", and to somewhere shy of .050" on the low side. And, the high "E" buzz behind the nut is gone. Amazing what a difference .004" can make!

I still need to do a little more work. The fret fits pretty tight so I still need to sand the string separator back just a smidge to ease installation, and the fret needs to be cut to approximate length. My plan is to use wood glue to hold the plastic separator in place, and a drop of CA on the fret. Then dress the fret ends flush with the ends of the separator. I'll post pix when it's done.

 

[Cagey]

 

[Cagey]

Amazing what a difference .004" can make!

Doesn't even take that much. Less than .001" can make for buzzes and strings boinking out on bends, which requires much greater clearance to avoid them. Lotta leveraging going on. That's why it's so critical to have frets leveled. You can often gain .010" or more in action just by lowering a couple frets that might only be .001" too tall.

 

[BigSteve22]

Thanks for the help brother, couldn't have done it without you.

(Fear and loathing in Cat Vegas?)

 

[Cagey]

No problem, you're welcome any time  :icon_biggrin:

 

[BigSteve22]

ZeroGlide nut finally installed. Ends trimmed and squared with a Dremel cut-off wheel, and the fret ends beveled with a fret end file. String separator glued in place with wood glue. I was going to use CA to hold the fret, but it snapped in place so firmly that I just let it go for now. I can always do it later on.

As you can see, my sanding on the back face of the string separator is not exactly perfect. There's a slight angle, as seen in the lower left corner of the nut slot, but it still locked in place.

With the action set to just shy of .050" at the 12th fret on the low "E", there's no fret buzz and everything feels smooth. The gauge don't lie...

A few points to consider:
[1] The frets supplied with the ZeroGlide are pretty short, (as in not tall), the tallest being .051". My neck is fretted with SS6230 wire which is .043" tall. Using the supplied .043" fret was problematic, increasing the height to a .047" fret allowed for proper geometry. If your neck uses a larger fret size, you may need to find a larger fret for the zero position.

[2] The ZeroGlide supplied frets are specially made with an offset tang. This offset places the center-line crown of the fret precisely over the bridge side edge of the nut slot. Standard frets have the crown directly over the center of the tang. This means that when using a standard fret, the crown is pulled away from the bridge by a distance equal to half the width of the tang. Warmoth's spec for their SS6230 fret wire is .080" wide by .043" tall. Checking Jescar's web site, this translates to their FW43080 wire, which has a tang width of .020", and a width of .032" across the barbs. I crushed the barbs almost flat on the fret I installed, but that still leaves the crown somewhere between .010" and .013" back from the front edge of the slot. That's less than 1/64", and seeing as how the much touted, and fairly expensive, Earvana nut moves the string contact points further away than that, it should not be a problem. In fact, using a Snark tuner, the first fret notes read in tune.

[3] The buzzing of the high "E", behind the nut, is still there. I thought it was gone completely, but I could hear it today. This may be a function of the Hipshot tuners I used. Although they're staggered, the high "E" post sits at 19mm. The high "E" of the Gotoh 510 series tuners I used on my Jazzmaster are slightly shorter, at 18.5mm, and there was never a problem. My Strat, which also has the Hipshot staggered posts, eventually required a string tree to tame the same type of buzz. It should also be noted that Cagey did the neck set up on my Jazzy, so his set up may very well be the difference.

So now, on to the body and the electronics!   I know, I know, my work flow is pretty linear, but this is therapy after all. At work everything happens at once, at home, at least I have some control! (At least I tell myself that I do....)  :laughing11: :laughing3: :laughing7:

 

[stratamania]

My high B and E Hipshots are 18mm and no string trees or buzz.

I don't think 19mm should make that much of a difference in that regard. Does the buzz go if you press the string down a bit behind the nut?

 

[BigSteve22]

My high B and E Hipshots are 18mm and no string trees or buzz.

I don't think 19mm should make that much of a difference in that regard. Does the buzz go if you press the string down a bit behind the nut?

The buzz disappears with just the slightest touch of the string behind he nut.

 

[stratamania]

Maybe the difference between the 19mm vs 18mm might be the culprit.  We can probably rule out the nut as it's not the usual type and I suppose there is no bind in the guide slot?

 

[Cagey]

Looks good!

I'm a little concerned by the report that the supplied zero frets had an offset tang while the one you used didn't. I know Earvana nuts set the entry points of the strings at different places for each string, but the whole nut is mounted slightly offset with each individual offset from there slightly different. Using a zero fret that sets your entry point wrong may mess with your tuning. When you're tuning or playing individual strings, you likely won't hear the effect of that because it's outside the range of human hearing resolution, but when you play chords (open chords in particular) it becomes more obvious. Put some distortion and/or compression on the guitar's output so the harmonics become more prominent, and any dissonance will become even more obvious. Not that you wanna go looking for trouble, I'm just warning you.

Re: buzzing string behind nut - I think you'll find the string is just barely touching the separator somewhere, likely at the bottom of the slot. File that down a touch so the string can't touch anything but the zero fret, and the buzzing will likely stop. The separator is just to hold the string's position relative to the other strings and prevent lateral movement, not to set its height at all.

 

[BigSteve22]

...I suppose there is no bind in the guide slot?

None whatsoever. I'm thinking that if there was, it would kill the buzz faster than a six year old walking in on mommy and daddy!

 

[stratamania]

Worth trying what Cagey suggested...

 

[rgand]

I like it. I'm following this with interest.

 

[Cagey]

If fine-tuning the exit end of the string separator on the tuner side doesn't cure the problem, perhaps just get a narrow chunk of rubber and trim it until it fits up flush to the tuner side of the separator and slightly impacts the strings. That oughta teach 'em to vibrate. If that works, a little glue to hold it in place might be in order so you don't have to keep making them.

If you look closely at an LSR nut, they do that on those but it's a part of the assembly...

 

[BigSteve22]

...Using a zero fret that sets your entry point wrong may mess with your tuning. When you're tuning or playing individual strings, you likely won't hear the effect of that because it's outside the range of human hearing resolution, but when you play chords (open chords in particular) it becomes more obvious.

I know I read elsewhere that, without a CNC set up, within a 64th's about as close as your gonna get. I checked the notes at the first fret, and all read good with the Snark. (Not the most accurate tuner, but pretty good none the less.) I also played some open chords to see how they sounded. I don't have a pup in the jig at this time, so the volume is kinda low, but they sounded OK. I'll know better when everything's together so I can plug in and put some volume to it. Then I'll also be able to check it with my pedal tuner.

Re: buzzing string behind nut - I think you'll find the string is just barely touching the separator somewhere, likely at the bottom of the slot. File that down a touch so the string can't touch anything but the zero fret, and the buzzing will likely stop. The separator is just to hold the string's position relative to the other strings and prevent lateral movement, not to set its height at all.

Good point, I'll check that.  :icon_thumright:

If fine-tuning the exit end of the string separator on the tuner side doesn't cure the problem, perhaps just get a narrow chunk of hard rubber and trim it until it fits up flush to the tuner side of the separator and slightly impacts the strings. That oughta teach 'em to vibrate. If that works, a little glue to hold it in place might be in order so you don't have to keep making them...

:icon_thumright:

 

[Cagey]

I'm sure the tuning will work out fine. There are some who pay far too much attention to what these super-accurate tuners tell them these days and lay awake at night wracked with anxiety, but come on. Look at how many thousands of professional players are out there making long dollars, millions in some cases, playing plain ol' raggedy-assed Strats, Les Pauls and what have you through war-torn Fender and Marshall amps that are older than they are. I mean, I have much better guitars and the same or better gear than Jimi Hendrix or Stevie Ray Vaughn ever had, so where's the problem? I should be fartin' through silk, dammit!  :laughing7:

 

[BigSteve22]

...I have much better guitars and the same or better gear than Jimi Hendrix or Stevie Ray Vaughn ever had, so where's the problem? I should be fartin' through silk, dammit!  :laughing7:

I'm with you brother, silky farts all the way! You deserve it!  :icon_jokercolor:

BTW, I just checked the slots on the separator, look to be about 1/32" lower than the fret. Just sent off an email to the guys at SportHiTech. Stratamania posted that he has Hipshot tuners with 18mm posts, I didn't know they came that way. If they can get them, I'll order a couple.

 

[Cagey]

I hope that works out for you. I'd be doing the rubber thing first, partly because it's faster and less expensive, and partly because if Fender (or whoever designed/makes the LSR nut) thought it was necessary to damp the strings that way then it's probably not be a frivolous feature. They even recommend losing the string trees when using that nut, and Leo himself pioneered that particular kluge. You'll also notice on the AmStd Deluxe Strats that right from the factory there are no string trees.

Where's your down force nooow?​

 

[BigSteve22]

I hope that works out for you. I'd be doing the rubber thing first, partly because it's faster and less expensive, and partly because if Fender (or whoever designed/makes the LSR nut) thought it was necessary to damp the strings that way then it's probably not be a frivolous feature. They even recommend losing the string trees when using that nut, and Leo himself pioneered that particular kluge. You'll also notice on the AmStd Deluxe Strats that right from the factory there are no string trees.

Copy that. And, when in doubt, there's always plan "B"..... :icon_thumright:

 

[Cagey]

Head down to Office Max/Staples/Kroger and buy an eraser for enough raw material to make several mistakes for next to nothing...