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Auto-tune for guitars ... ugh

reluctant-builder

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I just ran across this link: http://www.guitar-muse.com/guitar-auto-tune-the-future-is-at-stake-2404

It's not like quantizing and pitch correction haven't been around for a long time, but it looks like this makes it easy to record any garbage and just process it to what one might have intended to do had one any ability from the onset...
 
An age-old question is, "How do I make it sound the way I want it without actually having the skills to make it sound that way?"  The answer continues to be, in many cases, "Hire someone who can do what you want done."  See, e.g., Glen Campbell's tenure with the Beach Boys, through Steely Dan's roster of hired-gun studio guitar guys, and on and on.  Another answer is "fool around with it in the studio."  Most  recently that latter answer has been more specifically "apply a Pro-tools plugin until the swelling goes down" in a fair number of cases.  But some version of this answer has been applied for as long as it's been possible to edit recorded music.  That Lester Polsfuss  - what a fraud! 

But seriously: 

Where in the world can you get a sound like "Bohemian Rhapsody" except in the studio?  The answer is:  nowhere.  A lot of more recently recorded music does not have the pedigree (to some of us older guys) that Queen did, but it's really deja vu all over again.

So with respect to using autotune on a guitar (or a singer, or what have you, or even using a drum machine):

The question is not really: Is this a legitimate thing to do to a guitar part?

The question is:  Do I accept this as music, and more broadly, as art? 

On the one hand, sure it's art - it's just art you don't like.  On the other - it's a manufactured product that perhaps exhibits less of the individual technical skill and/or idiosyncracies that make music more "art-y" by your own criteria, and so it's bogus and not to be granted artistic legitimacy in your own belief-system.

EIther way - the future is here, son.  If you don't like what you hear, make a noise you like better, or change the station.  Complaining about it is like complaining about the weather, or politics - it doesn't do a lick of good.

Opinions expressed here are not necessarily the views of the management of this station, blah blah blah, add water, makes its own sauce, so you don't forget, call before midnight tonight!

Bagman

 
Amen. I think you're spot on with a lot of that, O, wise sage. :D

I agree that certain studio trickery is integral to making certain music. See the Beatles latter albums after they stopped touring as a prime example.

I suppose I am "ugh"-ing the propensity for anything like this to be used to muff a lack of skill. But, then, when used subtly for its intended application, I wouldn't likely ever know the difference. I can't say that auto-tune used as an "effect" makes me want to do anything but commit bloody murder, though.

I don't have a single issue with anyone using anything in an artful manner but, then ... "artful" ... that's mighty subjective!
 
Interesting article. I'm tempted to call the guy a Luddite, but he probably feels he's got some legitimate bitches inasmuch as he worked hard to do be able to do things right, and now the brats are going to be able leapfrog all that hard work. So, it's not that he's a Luddite as much as he's frustrated and envious. But, that's been happening since time immemorial. Why, I remember I had to walk 5 miles to school through 3 feet of snow, uphill both ways, without boots... <grin> More to the point, they made us memorize multiplication tables, the alphabet, how to read and cipher and stuff - now you just whip out your iPhone and it does everything but wipe your ass. And who knows? There may be an app for that.

I wouldn't worry about the whole autotune thing too much, though. It may be able to correct, but it can't predict the future and it's going to have some latency to it, so anything expressive is off the table. If you're bending a note, how can it know where you're going or when to stop? Same with vibrato.
 
Just like with vocal auto-tune, it's gonna sound weird.  People will know the difference.  Even if it catches on, the world is already full of crappy performers that get way too much credit anyways.  It would be another drop in the bucket. I'm not worried about it. 
 
Bagman67 said:
An age-old question is, "How do I make it sound the way I want it without actually having the skills to make it sound that way?"  The answer continues to be, in many cases, "Hire someone who can do what you want done."  See, e.g., Glen Campbell's tenure with the Beach Boys, through Steely Dan's roster of hired-gun studio guitar guys, and on and on.   Another answer is "fool around with it in the studio."  Most  recently that latter answer has been more specifically "apply a Pro-tools plugin until the swelling goes down" in a fair number of cases.  But some version of this answer has been applied for as long as it's been possible to edit recorded music.  That Lester Polsfuss  - what a fraud! 

But seriously: 

Where in the world can you get a sound like "Bohemian Rhapsody" except in the studio?  The answer is:  nowhere.  A lot of more recently recorded music does not have the pedigree (to some of us older guys) that Queen did, but it's really deja vu all over again.

So with respect to using autotune on a guitar (or a singer, or what have you, or even using a drum machine):

The question is not really: Is this a legitimate thing to do to a guitar part?

The question is:  Do I accept this as music, and more broadly, as art? 

On the one hand, sure it's art - it's just art you don't like.  On the other - it's a manufactured product that perhaps exhibits less of the individual technical skill and/or idiosyncracies that make music more "art-y" by your own criteria, and so it's bogus and not to be granted artistic legitimacy in your own belief-system.

EIther way - the future is here, son.  If you don't like what you hear, make a noise you like better, or change the station.  Complaining about it is like complaining about the weather, or politics - it doesn't do a lick of good.

Opinions expressed here are not necessarily the views of the management of this station, blah blah blah, add water, makes its own sauce, so you don't forget, call before midnight tonight!

Bagman

Case in point about the drum machine.  I use a drum machine because I don't know how to play drums.  I've just never had the opportunity to learn.  That being said, given that I don't know how to play drums, I still don't know how to actually customize a beat on the drum machine.  It never occurred to me that I might just need to know how to play actual drums to develop a good beat on a drum machine!  :tard:
 
Torment Leaves Scars said:
Case in point about the drum machine.  I use a drum machine because I don't know how to play drums.  I've just never had the opportunity to learn.  That being said, given that I don't know how to play drums, I still don't know how to actually customize a beat on the drum machine.  It never occurred to me that I might just need to know how to play actual drums to develop a good beat on a drum machine!  :tard:

I had that problem some years back. Managed to get a good drum machine at a bargain-basement price, and thought that would solve a lot of problems. Silly me. Even drummers have trouble with drum machines, where did I get the hubris to think I was going to replace a drummer with one when I didn't know how to play drums in the first place? They're not magic, after all.
 
That's actually a really good point; I'm a drummer. It drives me crazy when I hear drum tracks that are physically impossible for one person to play. Not there couldn't be an additional percussionist, "in theory," but I'm talking about beats crafted to mime the job of one drummer but, in the end, crafting a beat that requires three arms. When I can't record drums, I'll use fake ones ... but it's hard to tell.  :icon_biggrin:
 
I'm at work, so I can't post clips, but Pat Mastelotto does some pretty incredible things with triggers and integrates them into his organic drum sounds pretty seemlessly.  He's more of an exception than a rule, for sure, but giving people who've put the time in that are already capable of incredibly nuanced playing a larger palette can be incredibly rewarding/satisfying.
 
I've always treated the studio and the live performance as different environments. Worrying whether or not I can recreate the exact same thing live does not matter to me as I feel it would put restrictions on what I create, if a production turns out to be extremely difficult to replicate live then I will modify it so that it creates something more unique for the purpose of performance. Sound modules allow me the freedom to experiment with various rhythms. Another good point is that if I was to hire out the musicians I would need, my demands would be so high that only some of the most learned professionals could possibly hope to do it well, and of course that would cost a lot of money - which I don't have. With practice a good drum module can be made to do whatever you want and sound great. 
 
technology always changes art.  It's just another paint brush.  The only question is:  "is the application of this technology creating better art?".  Sometimes the answer is yes, other times no.

My experience with autotune (vocals - two records ago) created something that in hindsight did not make the art better.  We used it as an effect to make the lead vocal sound obviously auto-tuned in one particular passage.  Listening to it now, it just sounds dated ("man - that's so 90's").  Never felt the urge to pull out that particular paint brush again after that.  I'll leave that to someone who is more talented that I  :)
 
Cagey said:
Torment Leaves Scars said:
Case in point about the drum machine.  I use a drum machine because I don't know how to play drums.  I've just never had the opportunity to learn.  That being said, given that I don't know how to play drums, I still don't know how to actually customize a beat on the drum machine.  It never occurred to me that I might just need to know how to play actual drums to develop a good beat on a drum machine!  :tard:

I had that problem some years back. Managed to get a good drum machine at a bargain-basement price, and thought that would solve a lot of problems. Silly me. Even drummers have trouble with drum machines, where did I get the hubris to think I was going to replace a drummer with one when I didn't know how to play drums in the first place? They're not magic, after all.

Oh, how true it is.  I wish I'd figured that out BEFORE my wife spent a few $100s on my DR-880.  :tard:
 
I was watching something the other day about guys who are composing, recording and publishing music that cannot even play an instrument. Everything they do is computer generated, drums all the way through the band to the voice. And it is being used in Movies.
Technology is marching on.
Now with that said, I wonder if they can get a computer to improvise ?
 
Bagman67 said:
An age-old question is, "How do I make it sound the way I want it without actually having the skills to make it sound that way?"  The answer continues to be, in many cases, "Hire someone who can do what you want done."  See, e.g., Glen Campbell's tenure with the Beach Boys, through Steely Dan's roster of hired-gun studio guitar guys, and on and on.   Another answer is "fool around with it in the studio."  Most  recently that latter answer has been more specifically "apply a Pro-tools plugin until the swelling goes down" in a fair number of cases.  But some version of this answer has been applied for as long as it's been possible to edit recorded music.  That Lester Polsfuss  - what a fraud! 

But seriously: 

Where in the world can you get a sound like "Bohemian Rhapsody" except in the studio?  The answer is:  nowhere.  A lot of more recently recorded music does not have the pedigree (to some of us older guys) that Queen did, but it's really deja vu all over again.

So with respect to using autotune on a guitar (or a singer, or what have you, or even using a drum machine):

The question is not really: Is this a legitimate thing to do to a guitar part?

The question is:  Do I accept this as music, and more broadly, as art? 

On the one hand, sure it's art - it's just art you don't like.  On the other - it's a manufactured product that perhaps exhibits less of the individual technical skill and/or idiosyncracies that make music more "art-y" by your own criteria, and so it's bogus and not to be granted artistic legitimacy in your own belief-system.

EIther way - the future is here, son.  If you don't like what you hear, make a noise you like better, or change the station.  Complaining about it is like complaining about the weather, or politics - it doesn't do a lick of good.

Opinions expressed here are not necessarily the views of the management of this station, blah blah blah, add water, makes its own sauce, so you don't forget, call before midnight tonight!

Bagman
You could not have worded that better … nicely said!

If I could add, in the history of recorded music, EVERYTHING that starts as being unique eventually becomes cliché, with precious few exceptions.

The Beatles went nuts with stereo, putting stuff where ever they could, because nobody else had done it.  The majority of radio and home hi-fi systems were mono anyway (those who had stereos were listening to classical, most likely).  But, as it turned out, people developed a way to use stereo that made sense to the listeners.  Eventually, we might see that with surround-mixed music … and that is being done …. But until we grow more than 2 ears, and/or stop listening with iPod headphones, stereo will remain.

When the Moog came out, it suddenly appeared everywhere.  Same with the Yamaha DX-7, the 808 drum machine, Simmons drums, etc ad infinitum.

My guess is that if you try something different, no matter how " wrong " or " wierd " it might be, if enough people like it, it will get copied.

That’s not saying it’s right, that just saying how it is.
 
About 6-7 years ago I was playing bass in a band. Laid down tracks for one of our songs at my singer's home studio using my fretless. He emailed me the tracks later and had put it through autotune because he just figured my intonations were not perfect so why not. Now I'll agree that my intonation was likely not 100% dead-on 100% of the time, but the character of the sound changed so much from running it through that thing that I couldn't listen to it. I told him to either go back to the original track or re-record it himself because I didn't want people thinking it was me that played that awful-sounding track. He insisted it sounded better than the original. Played both versions for the whole band and everyone else agreed with me. Yet he still swore that we were all wrong. Needless to say, that band didn't last much longer. But yeah, autotune for ... anything, really, isn't good in my opinion. It's cheating. In a lot of cases it's the imperfections that give a song its character, that make it feel more organic. At least that's how I feel about it.
 
One of the things I like about the guitar is its imperfection. It imparts a certain character. People strive for all sorts of perfection with guitars, and that's noble, but it's an inherently flawed design, from a pure physics standpoint, prone to little quirks that I feel imbue it with charm. There's nuance in being just slightly sharp or flat of "perfection" and it can convey something significantly more powerful than the "correct" note. It may just be the drummer in me talking, but I think timing is the most important think in music ... but sound, that's totally subjective and some of the best sounds can often be some of the most imperfect.
 
AndyG said:
The Beatles went nuts with stereo, putting stuff where ever they could, because nobody else had done it.   The majority of radio and home hi-fi systems were mono anyway (those who had stereos were listening to classical, most likely).  But, as it turned out, people developed a way to use stereo that made sense to the listeners.  Eventually, we might see that with surround-mixed music … and that is being done …. But until we grow more than 2 ears, and/or stop listening with iPod headphones, stereo will remain.

The first song I ever heard in stereo was The Beatles doing "Paperback Writer", and I heard it through headphones so the separation was as pronounced as it could get (which was how they recorded a lot of that stuff). I was flabbergasted. I was already pretty well enamoured of the guitar, and that just pushed me over the edge. I don't remember the year... it was probably '67 or '68. Doesn't matter. The gauntlet was down, and if it was the last thing I ever did, I had to kick some ass <grin>
 
I LOVE listening to certain Beatles and Led Zeppelin songs with nice headphones!  Such a treat.  Especially Whole Lotta Love and Revolution 1. 
 
Funny you should mention Zep - that was another sea change for me. It was a few years later when I first heard the "Houses of the Holy" album, and was quite certain I'd died and gone to heaven. But, it might've been the dope <grin>

Seriously, though -  I heard "Dancing Days" off that album and wondered where these guys had been all my life. Come to find out, they already had a number of albums out (Led Zeppelin I-IV), all of which were excellent. That was it for The Beatles for me. I turned into a Rolling Stones kinda guy. That was also the period where FM radio came into its own in the Detroit area. Prior to that, you listened to AM radio or nothing at all. Few cars even had FM radios in them - it was mainly an aftermarket thing. If you were truly cool, you bought an FM radio/8-track tape combo and bolted it under the dash where it could be easily stolen. But, until that happened, you could listen to REAL music.
 
Another way Zeppelin ties into the auto-tune conversation is how Jimmy Page didn't care if he made a mistake so long as the take felt right. Got to commend that.
 
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