About those factory-standard threaded neck inserts.....

[stubhead]

I have been looking at the "threaded insert" system of attaching necks from different angles, and I feel that a poll is in order. I don't think there are too many people who will say that #8 wood screws are a better way of attaching the neck, and at least a few of the custom builders are now using the inserts. Now, at some point in Warmoth's neck manufacturing process, they have a big machine loom over the precisely-clamped neck, it goes BRRRRGH, and the neck has four precisely-placed holes for the #8 screws - you know, the obsolete #8 screws.

If they now have to remove the neck from the assembly line, clamp it up somewhere else and pay an employee valuable time to fidget it around long enough to re-drill some 17/64"? - 9/32"? - holes, and then spend even more time installing the inserts.... well, it would make for a pretty immense upcharge. However, I think it likely that if Warmoth did offer the inserts bang-off the first time for an adequate upcharge, they would find that 50%?~ 80%? ~ 97.5% of people would want that, and indeed it would be the person specifically ordering the #8 option that would be the weirdo. Yes, they would have to reprogram the BRRRGH machine to make bigger holes, and some really quick dude would have to sneak in there and screw in the inserts... however, both types of the inserts* do have special drivers available, and if we really are talking about 80% of the necks made, well then. Hence, the poll.

*(McMasters, McFeely's, screwdriver vs. 4mm allen wrench)

(I am allowing users to change their votes, so if you wait you shy ones can find out how everyone else wants you to vote. 11 days.)

 

[fdesalvo]

Voted!  I didn't see the option where one could turn back time and have a body that is already in process fitted.  Pfffff.

 

[ocguy106]

due to being a Lic by Fender product it is possible that they may not be able to offer this on their Fender line of products as they would no longer be a direct replacement. I am sure they could do it on all of their other offerings though.

 

[swarfrat]

That would prevent them from being standard. But you can slap a custom headstock on their lic by fender neck all day long.

Now that I have my drill press back, the only thing stopping me from installing inserts is the lack of gold oval head machine screws. Maybe I will try stainless.

 

[ocguy106]

That would prevent them from being standard. But you can slap a custom headstock on their lic by fender neck all day long.

I am not sure if that is a question or a statement. If it is a statement then that is what I already said they could indeed put it on all of there non fender headstocks.

If it is a question as to why they can make non fender headstocks...if you look at any of their non fender necks they do not say lic by fender on them.

I still think it would be a good idea and a way for them to make a little more money

 

[Cagey]

Now that I have my drill press back, the only thing stopping me from installing inserts is the lack of gold oval head machine screws. Maybe I will try stainless.

I always use stainless machine screws. They have that satin finish that's unobtrusive and sorta grayish, so they don't stand out or clash with anything. Work equally well with black, chrome, or gold. Besides, I've not been able to find gold or black oval head machine screws, so I just pretend I'm doing this on purpose <grin>

 

[stubhead]

So far, 25 people at least claim we WILL pay extra (somewhat....) for factory-installed inserts, and not a single brave stalwart stands up to defend the mighty #8 furniture screw! And a week of voting left..... watch this space. McFeely's price for 10 8-32 (4mm drive) steel inserts (2.5 guitars) is a whoppy $3.06, I think the 8-32 SS screws might be more than that themselves. McMaster's (flat drive) screwbies are $2.80 Each - something's afoot..... :icon_scratch:

What's a stalwart, anyway?

(tho I bet you get a price break if you're buying all 100 you need just for those who voted so far. and a whole week of voting left.)

 

[bagman67]

What's a stalwart, anyway?

Two of my favorite websites have something to say:


http://onelook.com/?w=stalwart&ls=a


http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=stalwart

 

[Cagey]

McFeely's price for 10 8-32 (4mm drive) steel inserts (2.5 guitars) is a whoppy $3.06, I think the 8-32 SS screws might be more than that themselves. McMaster's (flat drive) screwbies are $2.80 Each - something's afoot...

In single part quantities, brass and steel inserts are relatively inexpensive at about $.35 cents each.  The stainless parts are are substantially more at $2.80 each. Stainless is a more expensive material and no fun to machine, which accounts for the higher price. I think as far as the guitar/bass is concerned it doesn't matter which of the three materials you use, but it'll make a difference to the installer. The brass or steel parts get chewed up fairly easily, where the stainless parts will take a bit more abuse. But, that's more due to the manual installation. The other consideration would be the environment the part is going to live in. Sometimes you need stainless.

 

[swarfrat]

I didn't think it was a big deal before, because I had a 21 fret neck. Now it's a HUGE deal - I bet I've already had the neck on and off a dozen times or more. 

 

[bagman67]

I voted $45 bucks, but would you also say BRRGGGH again?

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

due to being a Lic by Fender product it is possible that they may not be able to offer this on their Fender line of products as they would no longer be a direct replacement. I am sure they could do it on all of their other offerings though.

That is an excellent point, but I don't think it would be an issue because the option for no inserts still exists.  Not to mention, not to long ago, Warmoth necks came un-drilled with no holes.

 

[stubhead]

I've done some more poking and there are at least two tutorials on actually using a matching tap into the wood - which allows the use of a slightly larger insert and screw. One can see that the 8-32 thread, 9/32''-ish hole choice of the aftermarket sets is often influenced by the cringe-worthy "damn-I-hope-I-don't-crack-this-sucker" nellyism - wisely so - and any bigger screw is definitely going to need a noticeably bigger set of body holes. Cutting the threads is adding yet another time-consuming bit of time and business is biz - but you'd be hard-pressed to recommend a AllParts, USA Custom or Guitar Mill neck to someone, knowing that one line's functionality was simply superior - business is biz.... :laughing7:

http://www.philtone.com/inserts.html

http://www.manchesterguitartech.co.uk/2011/04/11/how-to-fit-the-threaded-insert-neck-kit/

(and the price differences between stainless and plain steel and various self-tapping vs. pretapped inserts..... well thars a world out thar)

 

[Cagey]

I'm not going to go to a larger insert, but I think I might try tapping the holes. Have to do some measuring.

 

[duosonic]

So $45.00 includes the screws?

 

[stubhead]

The $45 doesn't include anything, becuase they don't actually DO this. But id you wanted to send a neck to someone else to do it for you, by the time the shipping back-and-forth was added to parts and labor it would be a good bit bigger than than. This is what's knows as SUGGESTION, "persuasion", Manipulation, the-turning-of-the-screw...... :dontknow:

Because they already got the neck there clamped up in a precision rig, and they're already (presumably) going to ship it to you. Hold yer breath*....

And Cagey, I'm assuming that the threads that are cut are the same as the "8-32" or "10-24" designation, using a tap designed for metal, but the only inserts I see of the right kind are also called the "self-tapping" ones, which seem to have some contour to the threads. So there may be a bit of experimenting with mix&match due here. The Philtone guy explains his choices:
http://www.philtone.com/inserts.html


*(OK, it's too soon to tell. Let it out.)

 

[Kostas]

I have used a kit from onyx in my Thinline http://www.onyxforgeguitars.com/Insert%20kit.html It's a good idea and I would pay a small upcharge to be fitted by Warmoth.

 

[Cagey]

And Cagey, I'm assuming that the threads that are cut are the same as the "8-32" or "10-24" designation, using a tap designed for metal, but the only inserts I see of the right kind are also called the "self-tapping" ones, which seem to have some contour to the threads. So there may be a bit of experimenting with mix&match due here. The Philtone guy explains his choices:
http://www.philtone.com/inserts.html

Yeah, I read that earlier and wondered the same thing, so I got out an insert and the Dial Caliper of Despair to see if I could suss that out. I'm not sure I learned anything, other than I'm still wondering. The numbers came out close to a standard thread size, but I don't know if close counts or if I'm measuring right. Threads and sizing can be funny, as anyone who's ever played with pipe threads can attest. So, before I order the tap I'm going to make some calls around to the various suppliers and see if anyone will commit to an answer on that. Not that taps are particularly expensive, but necks sure are.

 

[stubhead]

I have some of the 8-32 internal inserts that Skuttlefunk and you are using from McMasters, and in following a thread ID guide like this:
http://www.roton.com/identify_threads.aspx

I come up with external 3/8" 6 TPI, for which no tap is available, not even close - but that's the self-threading ones. But Philtone is using the inserts designed for metal, and threading the wood with a metal tap. Here's the page listing the inserts that Philtone's using, the 10-24 with the 3/8-16 external thread, for which bottoming taps are available.
http://www.catalogds.com/db/service?domain=ezlok&command=locate&category=hvy_crbn_unc
Since he's tapping the wood, the self-tapping feature is unneeded and there can obviously be more threads per inch, but apparently shallower. The same page has inserts with 8-32 internal threads, needing a 5/16-18 bottoming tap - also easy to find. It seems to me that maple, Pau ferro, padouk and the like could probably be tap-threaded, and do a fine job of holding on to the shallower threads, but maybe not mahogany? Of course I wouldn't use #8 screws on a softwood neck either... :laughing7: VARNISH is suggested as a acceptable lubricant - makes sense, as it's reversible and this is one case where wax would be a mistake. I'd scrape that red goo off too, whatever it may be.

 

[Cagey]

Well, I'm glad we're having this conversation.

I was measuring wrong, but I wasn't far off what measuring right brings. I don't know how you came up with the numbers you did, but I'm getting an external thread of 5/16-18 on an internal 8-32 SS part. And, as it turns out, that is a standard thread for which a tap exists. Also, the link you provided eventually led me here in case I wanted to buy some or get even more detail.

So, it appears that if I buy the recommended tap, I can use up my existing stock of parts, and get more for less since I'll have an easier time with the brass or steel parts rather than using the stainless parts.

As for thread depth, I'm not sure. I know on the harder woods like you mentioned, it shouldn't be an issue. I'll have to try this all once to see how it works out. I'm not sure this is going to be tight enough. Maybe instead of using a bottoming tap, use one with a lead-in taper so the insert still has to cut some threads, but not all. Y'know - just use it as a starter, so the balance of the hole is still unthreaded (or not deeply so) and the insert is firmly held.