A variety of Strat questions

[line6man]

Can you elaborate on the issues presented by multiple tone controls?  I do notice that guitars like the Ibanez Jem have just one volume and one tone control; I've seen Strats with one volume and two tones.  What's the functionality of the two tone controls in a Strat?

Tone controls are low pass filters which operate parallel to the signal path. This means that if you apply one to one pickup when two or more pickups are in parallel, it is parallel to both pickups, and therefore effects both pickups.

If you play a Strat on the neck+middle setting, both tones act as masters.

This might sound like a stupid question but how does this present a problem if a pickup is only wired in parallel with itself?  It's likely I'm not understanding something about how this works; what I know only extends to the fact that the pickups I have in mind are all humbuckers and those can be arranged, all on their own, to run in series/single-coil/parallel.  It seems like there's a big chunk of data I'm missing here and I'm definitely interested in filling that gap.

If you solo a pickup, the tone control applies to that pickup, regardless of the coil wiring.

 

[Mnemoflame]

Can you elaborate on the issues presented by multiple tone controls?  I do notice that guitars like the Ibanez Jem have just one volume and one tone control; I've seen Strats with one volume and two tones.  What's the functionality of the two tone controls in a Strat?

Tone controls are low pass filters which operate parallel to the signal path. This means that if you apply one to one pickup when two or more pickups are in parallel, it is parallel to both pickups, and therefore effects both pickups.

If you play a Strat on the neck+middle setting, both tones act as masters.

This might sound like a stupid question but how does this present a problem if a pickup is only wired in parallel with itself?  It's likely I'm not understanding something about how this works; what I know only extends to the fact that the pickups I have in mind are all humbuckers and those can be arranged, all on their own, to run in series/single-coil/parallel.  It seems like there's a big chunk of data I'm missing here and I'm definitely interested in filling that gap.

If you solo a pickup, the tone control applies to that pickup, regardless of the coil wiring.

Aye, what I not getting is how one pickup's tone control can screw with another if they're not explicitly wired in parallel with each other; my confusion lies in that I was only aware of either running a humbucker in parallel with itself or wiring multiple single-coil pickups, ala standard Strat arrangement, in parallel to avoid hum.  I have no plans to wire multiple humbuckers in parallel with each other but, if I'm reading you correctly, I may not be able to avoid this with the setup I have in mind?

 

[line6man]

Can you elaborate on the issues presented by multiple tone controls?  I do notice that guitars like the Ibanez Jem have just one volume and one tone control; I've seen Strats with one volume and two tones.  What's the functionality of the two tone controls in a Strat?

Tone controls are low pass filters which operate parallel to the signal path. This means that if you apply one to one pickup when two or more pickups are in parallel, it is parallel to both pickups, and therefore effects both pickups.

If you play a Strat on the neck+middle setting, both tones act as masters.

This might sound like a stupid question but how does this present a problem if a pickup is only wired in parallel with itself?  It's likely I'm not understanding something about how this works; what I know only extends to the fact that the pickups I have in mind are all humbuckers and those can be arranged, all on their own, to run in series/single-coil/parallel.  It seems like there's a big chunk of data I'm missing here and I'm definitely interested in filling that gap.

If you solo a pickup, the tone control applies to that pickup, regardless of the coil wiring.

Aye, what I not getting is how one pickup's tone control can screw with another if they're not explicitly wired in parallel with each other; my confusion lies in that I was only aware of either running a humbucker in parallel with itself or wiring multiple single-coil pickups, ala standard Strat arrangement, in parallel to avoid hum.  I have no plans to wire multiple humbuckers in parallel with each other but, if I'm reading you correctly, I may not be able to avoid this with the setup I have in mind?

If the neck and bridge pickups won't be used together, you will still be using the neck+middle and middle+bridge options, right?
With neck and middle selected, the neck and middle tones will both be masters, and the bridge tone will do nothing.
With middle and bridge selected, the middle and bridge tones will both be masters, and the neck tone will do nothing.

This makes for more knob twiddling to correct your tone settings when the pickups are used together, depending on how you set the tones for each pickup.

Also, if you do not switch the tone controls with the pickup selection, one capacitor will be needed per-control, which means an increase of capacitance if two tones are used together, and they are rolled down too far. This will shift the cutoff frequency of the lowpass filter downward. I don't know at what point this becomes noticeable, but theoretically, it is a functionality issue.

With three pickups, it is simplest to stick with one tone. I know a number of people here have ditched the second tone control on their Strat builds. It makes so much more sense to keep it simple.

 

[Mnemoflame]

Can you elaborate on the issues presented by multiple tone controls?  I do notice that guitars like the Ibanez Jem have just one volume and one tone control; I've seen Strats with one volume and two tones.  What's the functionality of the two tone controls in a Strat?

Tone controls are low pass filters which operate parallel to the signal path. This means that if you apply one to one pickup when two or more pickups are in parallel, it is parallel to both pickups, and therefore effects both pickups.

If you play a Strat on the neck+middle setting, both tones act as masters.

This might sound like a stupid question but how does this present a problem if a pickup is only wired in parallel with itself?  It's likely I'm not understanding something about how this works; what I know only extends to the fact that the pickups I have in mind are all humbuckers and those can be arranged, all on their own, to run in series/single-coil/parallel.  It seems like there's a big chunk of data I'm missing here and I'm definitely interested in filling that gap.

If you solo a pickup, the tone control applies to that pickup, regardless of the coil wiring.

Aye, what I not getting is how one pickup's tone control can screw with another if they're not explicitly wired in parallel with each other; my confusion lies in that I was only aware of either running a humbucker in parallel with itself or wiring multiple single-coil pickups, ala standard Strat arrangement, in parallel to avoid hum.  I have no plans to wire multiple humbuckers in parallel with each other but, if I'm reading you correctly, I may not be able to avoid this with the setup I have in mind?

If the neck and bridge pickups won't be used together, you will still be using the neck+middle and middle+bridge options, right?
With neck and middle selected, the neck and middle tones will both be masters, and the bridge tone will do nothing.
With middle and bridge selected, the middle and bridge tones will both be masters, and the neck tone will do nothing.

This makes for more knob twiddling to correct your tone settings when the pickups are used together, depending on how you set the tones for each pickup.

Also, if you do not switch the tone controls with the pickup selection, one capacitor will be needed per-control, which means an increase of capacitance if two tones are used together, and they are rolled down too far. This will shift the cutoff frequency of the lowpass filter downward. I don't know at what point this becomes noticeable, but theoretically, it is a functionality issue.

With three pickups, it is simplest to stick with one tone. I know a number of people here have ditched the second tone control on their Strat builds. It makes so much more sense to keep it simple.

Ok, yeah, that makes sense.  So independent tone is really not a realistic goal.  If that's the case, it could be a fine thing to use one concentric pot to reduce the drilling down to just one control hole..  Still leaves the other switches but that's less worrisome; might even be some creative ways to retain that same level of control with a smaller control farm.

 

[tfarny]

If you are going to play it live, then you need a system that gets you two or three good sounds and is easy to manipulate mid-song, on a dark stage, while busy playing and looking at the chicks in the audience (fingers crossed for you!). Probably the most complex setup that is reasonable is the standard Gibson setup, but many people find even that to be a pain (me!). If you are never going to play it on stage and don't care what it looks like, and want to fiddle a lot with knobs and settings, then get a super-complex setup. For me, personally, a 5 way switch, master volume, and one or two tones is all I'll ever put on a guitar any more. I've messed with complicated switching setups and they are never quite as cool as they seem at first, in fact I'm going to simplify one of my guitars fairly soon, removing a push/pull.

However, I will say that if you are using a five-way, go ahead and put whatever options you want on there, you can always change it later if you use a mega switch.

 

[Mnemoflame]

Would this wiring scheme, adapted as necessary for four-conductor pickups, work to provide the sort of control I'm after?  I gather this is the sort of thing a Player Strat uses but I know nothing whatever about how it'd work. It would certainly reduce the wiring and drilling issues substantially.

Not very helpful when the forum breaks my links...

 

[Cagey]

Would this wiring scheme, adapted as necessary for four-conductor pickups, work to provide the sort of control I'm after?  I gather this is the sort of thing a Player Strat uses but I know nothing whatever about how it'd work. It would certainly reduce the wiring and drilling issues substantially.

Your link doesn't work. I can't modify your post, so I've included the fixed link here.

I've done the "seven sound Strat" on several of my guitars, and I'm so disillusioned with it that I recently threw nearly $100 at Warmoth to make me new pickguards so I could put them back.

Actually, I did it a little differently, which is part of the reason I don't like it.

For one, despite what the article says, the additional tonal characteristics it brings aren't particularly useful. At least, not to me. If that's all it was, I'd just live with it. $100 is roughly 5 cases of beer, after all. Hardly worth the work just to ignore some settings I don't use <grin>

But, rather than use unwieldy and short life-expectancy push-push or push-pull pots to do all that ridiculous switching, I installed 3 toggles in place of the 5 position pickup selector. Seemed like a good idea at the time. Actually gave me 8 selections if you include "all off", which some guys think is useful (it's not). Saw it first on one of Mark Knopfler's guitars, and thought it was genius. Oddly enough, nobody's copied it. Go figure. Or, pay attention. Here's what it looks like on my white Strat...

The problem with it is there's no automation. If I flip on the neck pickup, it doesn't shut off the the other two. Almost all combinations work that way. Assuming I'm not "all off", I have to manipulate at least two switches and sometimes three to change pickups. Somehow, I didn't see that hardship on the going-in side. All I saw was "versatility", and chased it like the short-sighted fool I can sometimes be.

The one thing I did do right is only install one volume and tone control. They're always there, exactly where I expect them, and I don't even have to think about them. The hand automatically knows where to go to adjust if necessary.

Incidentally, those are all "4-wire" pickups in that Strat because they're noiseless, which means they're "humbuckers". Actually, it means they use common-mode noise rejection, but let's not confuse things with pointless patent fights over common knowledge. Thing is, with those style pickups, even though you have two coils jammed in there one way or another, it doesn't mean the individual coils are independently useful. The manufacturer brings all the wires out from both coils just in case not doing so would drive you to the competition, but that doesn't mean you should use them. It's just a political move, best ignored.

The reason to ignore it is that the individual coils most noiseless (or "humbucking") pickups are too small and/or have too low of an output to make most people happy. Humbuckers have two coils in series, so their output is something slightly less than double the output of the individual coils that make it up. So, they often wind them lighter, so as to not lose too much high-end response. It's usually a less-than-impressive sound.

Of course, there are some full-size traditional side-by-side humbuckers out there wound so tight and large that using a single coil of it would be viable, but they're sorta targeted at very specific audience. Namely, kids who don't know any better.

I don't know if any of that helps, but feel free to ask questions. Most everyone here has already done the "school of hard knocks" thing.

 

[Steve_Karl]

3 bat switches is the way I'll always do strats.
I have 2 wired that way now and am very used to it.

 

[Cagey]

3 bat switches is the way I'll always do strats.
I have 2 wired that way now and am very used to it.

I was quite sold on the idea and couldn't figure out why more people hadn't done it. The minimalist approach combined with increased versatility was appealing, but mean ol' Mr. Reality decided to school me on it and for the reasons mentioned above I'm no longer as enamoured of that configuration as I once was. I mean, to the point where I've spent the money and will spend the time to go back to the 5 position switch on the guitars I've used that scheme on. It's just easier, and the ability to mix my bridge and neck pickup, mix all three, or turn them all off wasn't anything to write home about.

 

[Mnemoflame]

Are push-push and push-pull pots really that bad?  I'd find the linked setup with a five-way switch and a push-push pot to be ideal as it provides all the control I want for a lot less drilling.

As to the coil splitting issue, the pickups I want to use are absurdly high output.  The D Activator neck and bridge are designed to offer active pickup sensitivity and drive in a passive design; making the gross assumption that splitting them would result in approximately half the normal output, they'd still be matching the hotter single-coils DiMarzio sells.  The Chopper would come down to output levels approximating DiMarzio's vintage single-coils.  This may or may not make them good candidates for splitting but I'd like to try it.  Here's a fairly clean, comprehensive demo video for the D Activators.

 

[Cagey]

Are push-push and push-pull pots really that bad?  I'd find the linked setup with a five-way switch and a push-push pot to be ideal as it provides all the control I want for a lot less drilling.

Push-push switches and pots are the worst, but push-pulls aren't a whole lot better. Mechanical failure is usually the problem, although I've seen them where corrosion was an issue because they simply weren't used enough to prevent electrical failure. They're kind of a goofy, consumer-oriented thing where the manufacture of the device that uses them is selling by "knobs-per-dollar" rather than functionality or practicality. Serious maintained switch applications normally use toggles.

As to the coil splitting issue, the pickups I want to use are absurdly high output.  The D Activator neck and bridge are designed to offer active pickup sensitivity and drive in a passive design; making the gross assumption that splitting them would result in approximately half the normal output, they'd still be matching the hotter single-coils DiMarzio sells.  The Chopper would come down to output levels approximating DiMarzio's vintage single-coils.  This may or may not make them good candidates for splitting but I'd like to try it.  Here's a fairly clean, comprehensive demo video for the D Activators.

They certainly exist, and I didn't mean to imply they didn't. I was just speaking in generalities. I'd be suspicious of such pickups because they often suffer from serious frequency response degradation, but some musical styles depend on that. If you like the way they sound, then by all means you should use them.

 

[Mnemoflame]

Push-push switches and pots are the worst, but push-pulls aren't a whole lot better. Mechanical failure is usually the problem, although I've seen them where corrosion was an issue because they simply weren't used enough to prevent electrical failure. They're kind of a goofy, consumer-oriented thing where the manufacture of the device that uses them is selling by "knobs-per-dollar" rather than functionality or practicality. Serious maintained switch applications normally use toggles.

I certainly have seen a lot of mixed reviews on the subject; the best of them don't seem to be available anymore and I'm guessing the ones Warmoth sells are no exception to the general rule.  It's a terrible pity as such a pot would obviate the necessity of extra pickup selection holes.  Whatever the possibilities may be, I don't want to put anything in a guitar that I'm likely to have to replace more than once every five or so years and I'd prefer to never replace things if it could be avoided.

They certainly exist, and I didn't mean to imply they didn't. I was just speaking in generalities. I'd be suspicious of such pickups because they often suffer from serious frequency response degradation, but some musical styles depend on that. If you like the way they sound, then by all means you should use them.

I actually meant to solicit your opinion on the pickups.  The D Activators sound really great to my ear but I'd certainly like to hear what others think.  The demo clips on DiMarzio's page are decent but don't really offer good examples for the full spectrum of sound each pickup makes; I found the above-linked Youtube video for the D Activators, which is excellent, but I have yet to discover any reasonable demonstration of just The Chopper.  Please let me know what you think.

 

[tfarny]

If you really want to mess with things: get a mega switch from stew mac, they require no funky routing or anything, and wire up five likely possibilities. Then after a month or two, re-wire it with five more. Then figure out which five are actually useful to you (five is plenty!) and wire it up that way. You can do just about anything with that switch. Advantages: You get to muck around and learn stuff, you get to be sure that your guitar sounds its best, and finally you have a simple and useable switching system.

 

[Mnemoflame]

If you really want to mess with things: get a mega switch from stew mac, they require no funky routing or anything, and wire up five likely possibilities. Then after a month or two, re-wire it with five more. Then figure out which five are actually useful to you (five is plenty!) and wire it up that way. You can do just about anything with that switch. Advantages: You get to muck around and learn stuff, you get to be sure that your guitar sounds its best, and finally you have a simple and useable switching system.

How does a megaswitch differ from a normal five-way?

 

[tfarny]

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Electronics,_pickups/Components:_Switches_and_knobs/Super_Switch.html?tab=Details#details

 

[line6man]

If you really want to mess with things: get a mega switch from stew mac, they require no funky routing or anything, and wire up five likely possibilities. Then after a month or two, re-wire it with five more. Then figure out which five are actually useful to you (five is plenty!) and wire it up that way. You can do just about anything with that switch. Advantages: You get to muck around and learn stuff, you get to be sure that your guitar sounds its best, and finally you have a simple and useable switching system.

How does a megaswitch differ from a normal five-way?

It is 4P5T instead of DP3T.
This allows for more wiring options.

 

[animal control]

"Center only" is probably much more useful than "all three". And why bother with a strat PU, if you're not going to use it? "Neck + Bridge" would be nice to have. Many people wire things up with the normal 5-way strat combinations and use a switch to add the bridge (or neck) to the other positions to easily get all the combinations.

This one nettles me.  I'd actually been considering dispensing with the five-way switch in favor of individual switches for each PU; it was the amount of drilling that would involve that prompted me to look for other options.  Looking at other parts of your post makes me think the five-way should be N - NM - NB - MB - B.  Switches to split the humbuckers (single-coil and parallel in addition to their normal arrangement) and to change the Chopper over to straight single-coil behavior still seem like a nice option to me.  This does leave out the option for the old school Strat setup with the three single coils (via splitting) but neck or bridge plus middle should get close enough to that to make no real difference.


[/quote]
A Megaswitch E (stewmac has them) does the selections you describe. It's strictly player taste but I use the NB combo a lot so it's a good fit gor me. I did try the 3 switches and maybe if I gave them more time I could learn to bat them around but I went back to the megaswitch. I'm afraid if I learn a new thing I might forget an old thing.

 

[Cagey]

I actually meant to solicit your opinion on the pickups.  The D Activators sound really great to my ear but I'd certainly like to hear what others think.  The demo clips on DiMarzio's page are decent but don't really offer good examples for the full spectrum of sound each pickup makes; I found the above-linked Youtube video for the D Activators, which is excellent, but I have yet to discover any reasonable demonstration of just The Chopper.  Please let me know what you think.

I didn't see any links from you, but I looked up the D-Activators on YouTube and there are some good demos there. It's an interesting pickup. I could see me installing one on something, not sure what just yet. Maybe the upcoming mahogany Strat I've been nibbling around the edges of for the last year. I don't think I'd want them on a primary guitar, but they're interesting enough to at least have an example around the house.

I think they would demand the right kind of amp, though. I suspect if you plugged one into a solid state front end, you'd end up with something harsh to the point of useless. They remind me of a pickup you used to be able to buy around here from a local company called "Pyramid". They were one of the original "upgrade" type pickups you could buy in the late '70s, back when replacement pickups were pretty thin on the ground rather than the popcorn they are now. Put one of those bad boys in a Les Paul, and you didn't need a preamp or fuzz/distortion pedal anymore, even with a Fender amp. Damn thing just beat the snot out of the input stage, and the rest of the amp did its best to make that abuse painfully loud. It was great <grin>

The problem with them was they were sort of a one-trick pony, and you can hear that in the D-Activator as well. In the videos, they talk about "here's how great it sounds clean", implying that it sounds great clean. It doesn't. It's so harsh it makes an old hillbilly Tele played through a Super Six full of Jensens sound like a warm, fuzzy kitten purring in your lap.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. You use the proper tool for the job at hand. You don't run a Ford Focus station wagon in the Gran Prix, and you don't take mom out to dinner in the General Lee.

Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads.​

But, for a naturally dirty, saturated singing sound without any silicon help, those things are little beasties. I love that about them. No need to throw money at or suffer the aggravation of any fiddly stomp boxes. If they could get just a smidge more low end out of them, they'd be a real-live wet dream for the latent Ted Nugent in us.

 

[Mnemoflame]

I'd actually figured that they would complement the warm, bassy tendencies of rosewood; the Chopper was chosen to emphasize the low and mid, as well as contrasting with the full-size humbuckers.  According to DiMarzio, all three pickups will clean up with the volume rolled off a bit; this seems reasonable to me and I have no objection at all to my volume control actually being relevant (as opposed to setting it at 10 and forgetting about it).  The entire setup is intended to offer the best variety of options when plugged into a Mesa Boogie TA-30 1x12".

 

[Cagey]

The rosewood doesn't have an output, only the pickup does, and the pickup has a frequency response curve to it. If it doesn't sense or reproduce the lower frequencies as well as the higher ones, it won't be able to send them along to the next stage in the chain, which could be a signal processor/modifier (stompbox), just the amp, or any of many sorts of fun electronics like recording gear.

A guitar's wood or combination of woods and hardware are more of a filter than anything else. They don't "enhance" anything, per se. They can only absorb vibrations. How much and at which frequencies is one of the battles we fight, along with the frequency response and waveshape distortion of the pickup(s). When we say that ebony or maple is "brighter", what we're really saying is they don't absorb high frequencies as much as rosewood or bubinga. So, when we amplify the vibrations of the string, what we get are what frequencies haven't been absorbed in varying degrees, colored by the response curve of the pickup and subsequent electronics.

The long and the short of it is, you could make the guitar out of knotty pine, but if the pickup isn't interested in low frequencies, you're not going to get them out of it.