Z Poxy

[Watershed]

I wanted to do a brief write-up on Z Poxy finishing resin as a filler/sealer.
I tried some of this stuff from LMI a while back and had great results with it, so I thought I would share.

I thought it deserved some attention because it is pretty simple to work with, and makes finishing open grain woods very easy.
It only needs about 24 hours to dry, and exhibits very little shrinkage.

It's obviously not the only filler/sealer out there (I know some out there have there favorites), but it's something to consider.

Most recently, I used it on my Swamp Ash Tele Deluxe build.
If you have ever tried to get a mirror finish with lacquer on Swamp Ash, you know all to well that a solid base is essential to start with.
Here's what you'll need.

I always soak the fragile areas of the neck pocket in thin superglue prior to any finishing, since that area is so prone to cracking.

I didn't snap any pictures of the application process, but here's a summary:
1.  Mix 50% resin / 50% hardener.
2.  Wear nitrile gloves and smear the mixture all over the body.  Make sure all the pores are filled.
3.  With your Bondo scraper, scrape off most of what you applied, leaving just the pores filled.
4.  Wipe off what you can't level with the scraper (edges, inside of horn, etc.) with a rag.
5.  Let dry

It took a few applications to completely fill this body.  I sanded back to wood (leaving the pores unharmed) with 320 grit between applications.
The idea is to fill the pores, and to have as thin a coat of epoxy as possible everywhere else.

The final application of Z Poxy, before spraying the base coat, was not sanded back.
This is important, the body was just wiped back with a rag on the final application.
The ENTIRE body should be coated in a very thin layer of epoxy at this point.

Here is the body after the Z Poxy treatment and three light coats of black lacquer.

As you can see, the grain pattern is completely hidden.  This (lacquer) has had about 2 weeks to dry.

All we need now is a bit more buildup with clear, and this body is ready for sanding/buffing.

Here we are mocked up with the pickguard.

With a vintage/yellow tint on the all maple birdseye neck, this should be a looker.

James

 

[Nando Vallart]

Wow looking reallly cool!!!!! Is this Z Poxy a kind of epoxy?? Do you think it would be usefull to hardner soft woods as spalted maple??

cheers

 

[MUYFUE]

REALLY cool!
Personally, I love the way it looks after the Z Poxy treatment and three light coats of black lacquer.
That slightly rough appearance loks really tough! Love it!

 

[Watershed]

Wow looking reallly cool!!!!! Is this Z Poxy a kind of epoxy?? Do you think it would be usefull to hardner soft woods as spalted maple??

cheers

Hey Nonsense,

I would look to this if doing a spalted top for sure.
It's worth noting that it does have a somewhat amber hue.
You wouldn't notice if it's applied real thin though.

James

 

[Mor Paul]

Wow looking reallly cool!!!!! Is this Z Poxy a kind of epoxy?? Do you think it would be usefull to hardner soft woods as spalted maple??

cheers

Hey Nonsense,

I would look to this if doing a spalted top for sure.
It's worth noting that it does have a somewhat amber hue.
You wouldn't notice if it's applied real thin though.

James

That might not be a bad thing on spalt.

 

[Nando Vallart]

Great James... In deed I like the spalted with a kinda golden color

 

[-CB-]

I've used Z-Poxy for other purposes.  Found it gets REALLY hard when you can keep it warm, or have enough of it so that the exothermic property keeps itself warm.  In thin coats... it didn't get as firm as I would have liked, but... if you keep it under a lamp, or apply out in the sun on a warm day, I'll stand by the results anytime, its good stuff.

I use it as a potting compound for electronics - where it takes the heat pretty well.  Never thought of it as a finish.  Gonna have to try that.

 

[Nando Vallart]

I've used Z-Poxy for other purposes.  Found it gets REALLY hard when you can keep it warm, or have enough of it so that the exothermic property keeps itself warm.  In thin coats... it didn't get as firm as I would have liked, but... if you keep it under a lamp, or apply out in the sun on a warm day, I'll stand by the results anytime, its good stuff.

I use it as a potting compound for electronics - where it takes the heat pretty well.  Never thought of it as a finish.  Gonna have to try that.

On the Brazilian summer I'm sure it'll become adamantium :laughing7:

 

[swarfrat]

Okay - more info - just found z-poxy at LMI and want more more more!

Reading over Z-Poxy adcopy at LMI... I get that people are using it as a filler. But, it's sold as a finish, and it looks to me like if you want a clear finish, this is a one n done filler/sealer/finish. I mean regardless of what you put over it, when you get done w/ z-poxy you should have no exposed wood, just epoxy, right?  And as such it won't take stains, dyes, etc..., should be reasonably hard, and can be sanded glossy?

So anyone got pictures of a clear z-poxy finish?  And can you elaborate on cracking in the neck pocket? What cracks? the finish? the wood? I've always thought of  epoxy as a 'hard enough for practical purposes, but at a fundamental level it behaves more like a tough, elastic material than a brittle hard material. Ie, it might gouge, but not crack, cracks will not spread, etc...

 

[Watershed]

I wouldn't try using it as a finish, personally.
However, I imagine that it is possible.

I do know that you can thin it with denatured alcohol and spray it.
It works, but sort of defeats the purpose (the idea was to fill the pores).

I did the above thinning technique over alder, primarily as a sealer.
Worked great, the subsequent coats of lacquer built up rather than soaked in.

Also, be aware, that Z-poxy has an amber hue to it.  So, if you are going the clear route, something to consider.
The thicker you make it, the more amber it will be.

Un-thinned, it has the consistency of honey.  To apply, I put on a pair of nitrile gloves, and massage it into the pores.
After that, I scrape it down with a bondo spreader (old credit card, whatever), and then wipe it down with a cloth (mainly the edges/corners), leaving as little as possible on the surface, and as much as possible in the pores.  Then, I sand it back to wood and repeat.

Regarding the cracking at the neck pocket:
That body (the tele deluxe) is extra lightweight swamp ash.  Pretty soft stuff really, especially when you are talking about those thin strips on either side of the heel.
A little sideways torque on the neck when installing is all that it would take to start a crack.
It's the wood that is moving, causing the overlying lacquer to crack.
It's really a precautionary measure, with the idea of strengthening the wood in that area.

Here's a shot of a body done in clear and z-poxy:

It's a little fizzy, my bad.

It's about a year old and is still glass smooth, with no pore shrinkage.

This is grainfilled with McFadden paste and black pigment.
Sanded back, and sealed in Z-poxy.
Sprayed in a satin nitro (McFadden's w/flattening paste).

James

 

[swarfrat]

Is there anything special about Z-poxy, or is it just a branded generic epoxy sold for this purpose?

ETA - tower hobbies is a bit cheaper than LMI for this item.

 

[Watershed]

Is there anything special about Z-poxy, or is it just a branded generic epoxy sold for this purpose?

ETA - tower hobbies is a bit cheaper than LMI for this item.

I can't say for sure, the best I can do is share my experiences.

A few things to note though:
The package of Z Poxy also says "Great for applying fiberglass cloth"
Then is says "Laminates wood and foam".

It doesn't appear that it was in any way designed specifically to be a grainfiller.

At the same time, I have also used run of the mill 2 part home depot epoxy to fill a few spots on a table that I built.
That too worked fine, although the table was painted in an epoxy "refrigerator paint".
Can't say what nitro (acetone really) would have done to it.

Always best to test.

James

 

[swarfrat]

Found this youtube link on a Ukelele forum:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYHxMg7n9cI

 

[Hbom]

For many years I've used a product called Acraglas to fill stocks on rifles. It is another poxy type that was 1st used to bed actions in stocks.
It works great for filling pores, can be dyed about any color with spirit dyes or even sanding dust, and can be thinned and sprayed as a final finish.
Personally I like it best used as a filler then finished with oil. Working is the same as described above,
Should work the same on most guitar woods.
I wouldn't be surprised that a talented color person could do a complete burst finish w/ epoxy and dyes, but I think oil or lacquer will feel better  in the hand TO ME.

 

[-CB-]

I've also used Accraglass and AG-gel.  Both great, but....

ALL epoxies are just not very tough when applied really thin - unless you take some precaution. 

When you mix epoxy, it begins an exothermic reaction.  I once had a bag of electrical splice epoxy get so hot, the bag melted, the epoxy came out ONTO MY LEG (covered in jeans).  It was so damn hot it instantly soaked thru my pants, and I had to peel them off PRONTO.  Needless to say, going commando, working on a golf course... I hit the woods, which were not woods, but swamp.

But I digress.

When you mix epoxy "hot" it gets very hot, and gets very tough.  If you mix it in thin layers, then it gives up a lot of heat, and it just doesn't quite cook over like it should.  You get a good epoxy for most thin things - bonding of two bigger items, or a flexy film.  I STRONGLY suggest experimenting if you go the epoxy route as a filler or finish.  Keep in mind epoxy finishes are very hard to repair if they lift.

I once molded Accraglass into a "bench block", then, after it cured, I milled two V grooves, and set a few holes in it, as well as knurled it!!!!  Tough stuff when you mold it into a block!!!

Thats all...

 

[swarfrat]

Any sage advice for hardened drips? Seems I got sloppy in the most recent coat.

 

[Watershed]

No biggie.
"Most recent coat", sounds like you should have the pores pretty well filled by now.

As far as the drip, sand it back.  In fact, at this point, I would sand the whole body back.
Not too much, you still want to keep the Z-poxy in the pores.

Once you have it sanded back, give it a final wipe down with Z-poxy, making sure all exposed wood is covered.
For the final wipedown coat, I generally thin it out a bit with denatured alcohol.
Not much, perhaps 25% denatured alcohol.

Mix the two parts of the Z-poxy together.  Then add the denatured alcohol.
Strange stuff will happen, it will turn all cloudy.
Don't worry, keep stirring, it will thin out and turn clear (well amber) again.

Now soak a rag or something similar in your thinned out Z-poxy.
Now wipe the body down, covering any exposed wood area.

This isn't the ONLY way, I just find it easier to thin out on the final coat.
I haven't done it every time.

Good luck,
James

 

[swarfrat]

Btw don't use cheese cloth. Way too much lint.

 

[Watershed]

NO NO NO!!
:laughing7:

I use a rag, or one of those industrial strength blue paper towels.

 

[Watershed]

Here is a shot of an ash body after getting a second coat of Z-poxy.

The steps so far:
1.  Shot in clear
2.  McFadden's paste filler with black pigment smeared on by hand, wiped off with a rag horizontal to grain.
3.  Application of unthinned Z-poxy, smeared on by hand scraped off with a bondo scraper.
4.  Sanded to wood, pretty much.  Making sure everything looks even.
5.  Thinned (50/50 Z-poxy/Denatured alcohol) mixture dripped on, wiped around with a rag, and a final wipe horizontal to grain.

This will get one more sandback, and a reapplication of step 5.
Should be ready for spraying with a nice level surface.

You'll definitely want to wear gloves.
:laughing7:

James