Woodmounting singlecoil with threaded insert: Reinventing the wheel

[fdesalvo]

I know it's easy to simple use foam to adjust the height of a pickup, but how about installing some nice threaded inserts?  You could then use a larger spring to create a more stable base for the singlecoil to rest on.  Should be easy-peazy.  I lke to experiment with pickup heaight, so this would facilitate ease of adjustment.  Someone tell me where I'm going wrong here.

 

[Cagey]

You're not going wrong anywhere. That gets done from time to time. Just don't forget to wax the insert before you try screwing it in. Also, it's worth it to buy the little driver tool that's designed for those things. McMaster-Carr sells them; they're about $10.

 

[Johnfv]

My fear is springs alone will not be enough to keep them in position. Without a pickguard or ring there you need something pretty strong to keep them stable.  I started with "normal" foam on mine and found they would move and lean easily as the guitar was moved (and you know a how sensitive pups can be to slight position changes). I ended up having to put some very rigid foam under mine and crank them down hard on the foam; they are good and solid now. The Lace Sensors I used are not as big at the base as a normal Stat pup, a bigger base could help keep things stable with foam underneath. YMMV...

 

[fdesalvo]

Thanks, Cagey.

John, I love the feathered look of that top!  I was thinking that I could order larger diameter and stiffer springs to help create more stability - or add an additional surface mounted spring or two beneath the pickup. 

 

[JaySwear]

My fear is springs alone will not be enough to keep them in position. Without a pickguard or ring there you need something pretty strong to keep them stable.  I started with "normal" foam on mine and found they would move and lean easily as the guitar was moved (and you know a how sensitive pups can be to slight position changes). I ended up having to put some very rigid foam under mine and crank them down hard on the foam; they are good and solid now. The Lace Sensors I used are not as big at the base as a normal Stat pup, a bigger base could help keep things stable with foam underneath. YMMV...

Awesome! Have a link to the build thread for this thing? I, too, an thinking about mounting Tele pickups right to the body. I'd love to see more of that guitar

 

[line6man]

My fear is springs alone will not be enough to keep them in position. Without a pickguard or ring there you need something pretty strong to keep them stable.  I started with "normal" foam on mine and found they would move and lean easily as the guitar was moved (and you know a how sensitive pups can be to slight position changes). I ended up having to put some very rigid foam under mine and crank them down hard on the foam; they are good and solid now. The Lace Sensors I used are not as big at the base as a normal Stat pup, a bigger base could help keep things stable with foam underneath. YMMV...

Usually, springs are not used at all. They are a PITA to work with, in a tight cavity, and they don't do anything.
You have to mount the pickups the same way that bass pickups are mounted. Pack thick foam underneath. Depending on the foam you use, you may need a LOT. For example, Home Depot weather stripping foam is designed for compression, so I had to use many layers to get a pickup mounted properly.

 

[fdesalvo]

That's a great and simple idea, man.  I might go that route.

It would be cool to see a  product like this - the lower half is a plate that mounts inside the cavity after your threaded inserts are installed.  The upper half has mounted springs.  Your pickup is installed on top of the upper plate.  The upper plate has recesses into which the spring ends fit.  Here's my crude and disproportional mockup haha.

My fear is springs alone will not be enough to keep them in position. Without a pickguard or ring there you need something pretty strong to keep them stable.  I started with "normal" foam on mine and found they would move and lean easily as the guitar was moved (and you know a how sensitive pups can be to slight position changes). I ended up having to put some very rigid foam under mine and crank them down hard on the foam; they are good and solid now. The Lace Sensors I used are not as big at the base as a normal Stat pup, a bigger base could help keep things stable with foam underneath. YMMV...

Usually, springs are not used at all. They are a PITA to work with, in a tight cavity, and they don't do anything.
You have to mount the pickups the same way that bass pickups are mounted. Pack thick foam underneath. Depending on the foam you use, you may need a LOT. For example, Home Depot weather stripping foam is designed for compression, so I had to use many layers to get a pickup mounted properly.

 

[line6man]

That's a great and simple idea, man.  I might go that route.

It's how Leo Fender has done it since the late 1940s.

 

[Johnfv]

...John, I love the feathered look of that top!...

...Have a link to the build thread for this thing?...

It looked so much like feathers I named it "The Raven":
http://www.unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=17878.msg264490#msg264490

 

[Johnfv]

I'm still skeptical on the springs alone (with no side support from a pickguard or ring), it can pivot easily on the screws without some serious pressure there. As line6man pointed out, would be a total PITA to get those springs in there also. You want as much surface area as possible to keep it stable.  Foam is the way to go, just make sure you get the right amount of "resistance" from the foam so it holds the pup steady.

 

[anorakDan]

Not a real pain to deal with the springs. A very small amount of glue, like a contact cement or even Elmer's, applied to the spring on the pickup side should hold the spring on long enough to locate the mounting hole and crank it down.

 

[Alfang]

Don't forget to take into account how much wood you have between the bottom of the pickup route and the spring cavity on the back if you have a trem setup, it's thinner than you think

 

[stubhead]

On my upcoming Jaguar, I'm mounting the pickups, and the electronics, on different pieces of pickguard, so it will be much easier to change things around. To do so, I found these things called "helicoil" inserts. It's essentially a little spring that's wound to correspond on the inside to a particular screw thread. These are the ones I got:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/350361789682?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

The advantage is size - the ones I'll be using are 4-40 threads on the inside, but it only requires a 1/8" hole. which will work better around a control cavity that's close to the edge. The disadvantage is that so far, those .280" ones are the longest I could find, so I'll have to be really careful in drilling the 1/8" holes to an exact length. If you were using them for adjusting height, you'd only have less than 1/4" length to play with. Somewhere in my travels I saw a place to get the continuous spring - you'd cut to length yourself, so you could line the entire hole with "threads" - but I don't remember where, it's probably in here somewhere -
http://www.emhart.com/brands/heli-coil

They seem to be used mostly for repairing stripped threads. I haven't quite yet figured out how to make them stay in their holes either, but I'm sure it'll come to me when it needs to. I think pickup screws are usually 4-40 too.

 

[gorditas]

I recently finished an installation using this method. I obtained my inserts at a hobby shop, and the bolts at the local hardware store.  I settled on 4-40 because that is small enough that the hole in the pickup can be enlarged enough to let the bolt slide easily for adjustment, but smaller than the standard pickup hardware. This would allow the pickups to be utilized in another guitar down the road without any problems.

The instructions on the inserts suggested a few drops of glue , which I complied with. The 4-40 size did not have a groove or provision for a hex tool.  In light of this, I used a 4-40 screw slightly longer than the insert, and applied petroleum jelly to the protruding section of the machine screw to prevent glue from getting in the threads. Of course, use a drill press for the holes to be sure they are square, and to limit the plunge depth.

My guitar had the .780 MOD, and thus has the pickups a little lower than standard. I was concerned about the springs being stout enough, and had several available. The standard springs seemed to work pretty well, and they are very close to fully compressed. I started with a spring within a spring, but there was too much tension when close to the bottom of the cavity. Springs made for Delta faucets are roughly the right height, fit outside of the springs that probably came with your pickups, and are easily sourced. I was prepared to use foam in addition to the springs, but have not found it to be necessary. I chose screws made with a countersunk head that was smaller than the pickup hole at the base, but larger at the top. This has the effect of centering the pickup hole on the bolt, and limiting any lateral movement.

I would use this method again without hesitation.

 

[fdesalvo]

Gorditas - nice work, man!  Love the color of that top.  Are you enjoying your DiMarzios?


Stub, I know some people attach necks with helicoils.  Do you see any advantage over a standard insert other than size (if this is the case)?

On my upcoming Jaguar, I'm mounting the pickups, and the electronics, on different pieces of pickguard, so it will be much easier to change things around. To do so, I found these things called "helicoil" inserts. It's essentially a little spring that's wound to correspond on the inside to a particular screw thread. These are the ones I got:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/350361789682?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

The advantage is size - the ones I'll be using are 4-40 threads on the inside, but it only requires a 1/8" hole. which will work better around a control cavity that's close to the edge. The disadvantage is that so far, those .280" ones are the longest I could find, so I'll have to be really careful in drilling the 1/8" holes to an exact length. If you were using them for adjusting height, you'd only have less than 1/4" length to play with. Somewhere in my travels I saw a place to get the continuous spring - you'd cut to length yourself, so you could line the entire hole with "threads" - but I don't remember where, it's probably in here somewhere -
http://www.emhart.com/brands/heli-coil

They seem to be used mostly for repairing stripped threads. I haven't quite yet figured out how to make them stay in their holes either, but I'm sure it'll come to me when it needs to. I think pickup screws are usually 4-40 too.

 

[Johnfv]

...I chose screws made with a countersunk head that was smaller than the pickup hole at the base, but larger at the top. This has the effect of centering the pickup hole on the bolt, and limiting any lateral movement...

Good info! The flared heads on the screws makes good sense, that centering effect should help minimize the tilting I was seeing with mine and the weaker foam I had intially...

 

[fdesalvo]

What depth did you drill to and what length bolt did you use?

I recently finished an installation using this method. I obtained my inserts at a hobby shop, and the bolts at the local hardware store.  I settled on 4-40 because that is small enough that the hole in the pickup can be enlarged enough to let the bolt slide easily for adjustment, but smaller than the standard pickup hardware. This would allow the pickups to be utilized in another guitar down the road without any problems.

The instructions on the inserts suggested a few drops of glue , which I complied with. The 4-40 size did not have a grove or provision for a hex tool.  In light of this, I used a 4-40 screw slightly longer than the insert, and applied petroleum jelly to the protruding section of the machine screw to prevent glue from getting in the threads. Of course, use a drill press for the holes to be sure they are square, and to limit the plunge depth.

My guitar had the .780 MOD, and thus has the pickups a little lower than standard. I was concerned about the springs being stout enough, and had several available. The standard springs seemed to work pretty well, and they are very close to fully compressed. I started with a spring within a spring, but there was too much tension when close to the bottom of the cavity. Springs made for Delta faucets are roughly the right height, fit outside of the springs that probably came with your pickups, and are easily sourced. I was prepared to use foam in addition to the springs, but have not found it to be necessary. I chose screws made with a countersunk head that was smaller than the pickup hole at the base, but larger at the top. This has the effect of centering the pickup hole on the bolt, and limiting any lateral movement.

I would use this method again without hesitation.

 

[gorditas]

Gorditas - nice work, man!  Love the color of that top.  Are you enjoying your DiMarzios?

I am. They are dead quiet, and offer a variety of tones. '58's in the neck and middle, '61 in the bridge. Bourns pots (low friction on the volume) Orange drop caps, and a Seymour Duncan spec treble bleed with resistor and cap.

 

[gorditas]

What depth did you drill to and what length bolt did you use?

I drilled the holes about 1/16 deeper than the length of the insert (body of the drill bit.) The tip of the drill provided room for a little clearance for the bolt to protrude. I think the bolts ended up around 1" long. I mounted the neck on the guitar, sat the pickups in the cavity without the springs, and then placed a straightedge on the end of the neck. I then brought the pickup out of the cavity until it was at the approximate installed height based on the clearance between the pole pieces and the straightedge representing a fretted string. I could then measure the distance the pickup moved from that point to being bottomed out in the guitar. With this (ballpark) number, I selected bolts that would be near the middle of their travel in the insert.

 

[stubhead]

Stub, I know some people attach necks with helicoils.  Do you see any advantage over a standard insert other than size (if this is the case)?

I don't actually think I would use the helicoils on something like a neck, where it'd be bearing a cosiderable load. On the inside, the threads are designed to mate with a machine screw, and steel-to-steel at that. However, the outside of the spring doesn't have a lot of surface area perpendicular to the wood, so I'd be worried about the whole insert pulling out. You could try to epoxy them in (and insert a greasy screw to prevent epoxy creeping into the interior threads) but all in all I think you'd be better off with the other kind of steel inserts. I wonder if there are any of those that use the full 1/2" of hole in the neck - anyone brave enough to stare at McMasters for 4 hours?