wiring problem: volume pots

[Orpheo]

I'm having trouble with a wiring schematic, and I just can't figure it out. I have to describe it, so bare with me.

I usually wire a volume pot like this.

left lug: earth
middle lug: output to toggle
right lug: input of the pickup

that way I can adjust the volume (duh) and when the pot is closed, there is no signal. when I use both pickups, the volume goes away when I turn down one of them. even if the other is on 10, if one is on 0, there's no sound. but also no hum, no noise, no hiss, and no 'leaked' signal. With that I mean a signal but very very faint.

I have heard that swapping the pickup-wire and the toggle wire will give me independant volumepots. so it will be like this.

left lug: earth
middle lug: input of the pickup
right lug: output to the toggle.

But now it's FAR FROM BEING INDEPENDENT!!!! this is what I get.

if I go to one pickup and I close the pot, I get a weak signal. If I turn down both volume pots to zero, there's no signal of the pickups, only huge amounts of hum that only increases when I lift my hands from the strings or anything that's connected to ground. If I use both pots they finally do work as they should.

Educate me. What am I doing wrong?

 

[line6man]

What you are doing now is varying the resistance of the volume pots against the pickups, rather than the output. This means that the volume pots no longer place a zero Ohm load on the output when they are turned down, and you now have an output impedance which is equal to the value of either pickup's volume pot, when one is selected, or 1/([1/Volume 1]+[1/RVolume 2]) when both pickups are selected, plus the frequency dependent resistance of the tone pots parallel to that, as 1/([1/RTotal of volumes]+[1/RTone control 1]+[1/RTone control 2]).
This impedance is apparently high enough that you are beginning to notice that you have not properly wired and grounded the guitar. Rewire everything neatly, and be sure there are not grounding issues.

 

[Orpheo]

I can understand that that must be it, but that's impossible. I've measured it all. All the pots are connected to earth, there are no shorts, no contacts that touch that shouldnt touch. all the wires of the pickups are coupled correctly etc etc. I've had this problem not on one, but on SEVEN guitars. I refuse to believe that seven guitars are wired wrong.

 

[Orpheo]

I thought to give it a go like this.

desolder a pot completely.
don't solder the left lug to the back of the pot, but the lug to earth and the back of the pot to earth independent of each other. middle lug pickup, right lug to the jack directly. I measured with my multimeter if the grounds are all connected to the bridge. I completely bypassed the toggle tonepots and the other pickup. it STILL doesn't work.

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

I've had this problem not on one, but on SEVEN guitars. I refuse to believe that seven guitars are wired wrong.

So all 7 that are wired the same are wired correctly but aren't working?  :icon_scratch:

 

[Orpheo]

I've had this problem not on one, but on SEVEN guitars. I refuse to believe that seven guitars are wired wrong.

So all 7 that are wired the same are wired correctly but aren't working?  :icon_scratch:

they are working, but swapping the non-ground terminals gives the same issue as I've described it before.

 

[Cagey]

It's a natural side-effect of having pots in parallel. You can wire them backward, forward - it doesn't matter. Pots are just resistors - there's no polarity to them.

The multiple volume/tone thing has always been a marketing ploy, not an effective control scheme. Back in the olden days when nobody knew any better, more knobs=more money. It seemed like a Good Thing. But, the reality is that it's not. With passive pickups, it just doesn't work logically and there's no way to make it work. Some folks have learned to live with it, and have in some cases even gotten to the point where they prefer it, but they're just making the best of a bad situation.

The best and most logical control scheme for an electric guitar with passive electronics is a single volume/single tone setup. Feed your pickup(s) to those however you will, but adding any more modifiers than that is not only pointless, but a prescription for frustration.

 

[Alfang]

And again Cagey is correct, just look at a Strat, two tone knobs? really?

I read an article about the development of the strat and indeed the thought of the day was more knobs and switches = more sales

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

:icon_scratch:

A control layout one doesn't care for doesn't mean it doesn't work.  A blend knob/pot is essentially the same thing.  2 pickups in parallel with the volume of each varied in relation to each other.  Bad idea I guess, both are supposed to be full blast with only a master in every config.

 

[Cagey]

You can get used to anything. I grew up thinking daily beatings were a natural thing and to be expected.

Learning to live with a bad control scheme is much the same thing. You suffer without realizing it, believing that's just the way things are, and learn to work around it. Doesn't make it right. Nobody should have to deal with that kind of hardship, especially when it's so easy to avoid. Multiple controls don't work, never have, and never will, at least with passive systems. You can try to justify it, but you're not fooling anybody who knows better.

Now, if you want to put a battery on board, you can get into active electronics with buffers/mixers that'll let you do all sorts of fun things. But, you have a battery to worry about. They not only eventually die, their performance deteriorates in the process. You want that, or would you prefer the predictability of passives?

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

I mostly play bass.  Believe it or not, sometimes some but not all of each pickup is a good thing, especially when used with another.  But hey, dialing in something is akin to daily beatings, there is no pleasing some people I guess.  I would argue full on multiple pickups is closer to a beating, but what do I know.  It's like the guy I know that puts he was born with a birth defect and an alcoholic father on his music website.  I guess one had something to do with another.

 

[drewfx]

Learning to live with a bad control scheme is much the same thing. You suffer without realizing it, believing that's just the way things are, and learn to work around it. Doesn't make it right. Nobody should have to deal with that kind of hardship, especially when it's so easy to avoid. Multiple controls don't work, never have, and never will, at least with passive systems. You can try to justify it, but you're not fooling anybody who knows better.

Personally I consider a single V and T in a 2 HB guitar worse than daily beatings - because it takes away most of the best sounds of the guitar. If someone can't deal with the very minor problems associated with 2V + 2T they should be prohibited from having more than 1 PU in a guitar.

Now, if you want to put a battery on board, you can get into active electronics with buffers/mixers that'll let you do all sorts of fun things. But, you have a battery to worry about. They not only eventually die, their performance deteriorates in the process. You want that, or would you prefer the predictability of passives?

This is a problem that doesn't exist. The only people who have a problem with active electronics are people who can't remember to unplug the cord. Most circuits' batteries last for months and months and don't audibly deteriorate until the batteries on their absolute last legs.

You worry about this stuff waaaaay too much. I really wonder if you wouldn't be better off just playing acoustic - there's no batteries and the controls are really, really simple.  :icon_biggrin:

 

[Cagey]

Fortunately, The One hasn't deemed it necessary to regulate guitar configurations. Yet. So, to each his own.

I do have an acoustic, but it's too complicated for me so I don't play it much. Damn thing has strings on it! If you can call them that... they're actually lengths of tensilized steel wire stretched out until they vibrate with the least bit of stimulation. I've been thinking of removing them, but I have to save up some money so I can take it to a luthier. I don't trust myself with sidecutters.

 

[drewfx]

Fortunately, The One hasn't deemed it necessary to regulate guitar configurations. Yet. So, to each his own.

I do have an acoustic, but it's too complicated for me so I don't play it much. Damn thing has strings on it! If you can call them that... they're actually lengths of tensilized steel wire stretched out until they vibrate with the least bit of stimulation. I've been thinking of removing them, but I have to save up some money so I can take it to a luthier. I don't trust myself with sidecutters.

:laughing7: