Which files for fret ends, etc

[Updown]

I want to try something I haven't yet tackled in my guitar building so far.
Got to see how it was done via my guitar tech. So as I could do myself.
Forgot to ask him which files I should get.  :doh:

So I would like to know which files I should get from StewMac.
Got a couple of Necks to experiment and play around with 1st, before attacking my better necks.

1st off, I want to do the fret ends (round off smoother) Before venturing any farther.
 
All my frets size's are either ……. SS 6115
                                                SS 6150

Plus a couple are standard frets 6150

OK …. There are many to choose from.

If I got the Diamond, I'd get the 300 grit.
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Files/Offset_Diamond_Fret_File.html
Don't worry about the $$$ I'd rather the better tool for the right job.

OR these type  :dontknow:
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Files/Concave_Fret_End_Files.html

:icon_scratch:  Which do you think is the best to get ?

Plus .... any need of these Fret Erasers ?
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Fretting_supplies/Polishing_and_abrasives/Fret_Erasers.html

Thanks heaps  :icon_thumright:

 

[Cagey]

The files you've chosen aren't really as good for end dressing as they are for crowning. What works much better for dressing is this file...

Although if you're working stainless, be forewarned you may want to buy 2 or 3 of them up front to save on future shipping unless you buy a lot of stuff from StewMac and have packages coming from them regularly. One is only good for about 6-8 necks. On the plus side, they're not terribly expensive.

Some better (diamond) files for doing the same thing are available here, but I don't know if you can get them there. I'd suggest contacting them. I've got a set, and they work great.

Once you're done shaping your ends, they won't look very good - you'll want to grind/polish from there to finish. For that, you just need these 3M Polishing Papers...

You don't need the complete set, just the green through pink, and for every one pink and blue, buy 2 grays and 3 greens. That's enough to do probably 4 or 5 guitars. You cut them into 1" wide strips, and strop the edges like you see them doing to this nut...

If you cut them long-wise, you can wrap the strip across the neck and hit both sides at once. Be sure you've taped off the fretboard, or you're wreck that cutting against the grain.

The whole process is a lot easier if you get a neck caul to hold the neck in place...

And attach it to a short length of 2x4 to give it a little more height.

Also, you'll want to be able to hold the neck in place while you strop the fret ends, so something along these lines is handy...

I don't know that I'd buy that particular unit for what they're asking, but you can see what I'm talking about. Somebody on the forum here was making them at home for half that a while back, and that's where I got mine. Indispensable. You can probably have one fabbed up locally pretty easily. Keep in mind you're going to want some way to keep the thing from turning while you're not hanging on to it, so a clamp or a series of locator holes with a pin or something is in order.

 

[Updown]

Thank you so much Cagey for all that info  :icon_thumright:

Yep got those finishing papers and the neck Caul  :icon_biggrin: 

Gotta try it sometime, so now seems a good enough time :toothy11:

 

[Cagey]

I'm sure you'll do fine. It's not particularly difficult, but it is tedious and time-consuming. Actually, I think the stainless frets are a little easier because they don't cut very fast so it's tough to screw them up. Just take your time, be patient and it'll come out great.

 

[Updown]

Got all those bits you stated Cagey  :icon_thumright:

:dontknow:  Should I tape up the neck before attacking this for the 1st time ?
Can't hurt can it ?

Most images / videos I've seen don't.

I realise I need to when doing the polishing with those 3M polishing strips.

Thanks  :icon_thumright:

 

[Cagey]

I always tape up the neck. Better to be safe than sorry, and as you say: can't hurt.

 

[Updown]

Just letting you know I accomplished what this opening post was about.
All went very well after some great info from Cagey.  :icon_thumright:  ... Many thanks to you Cagey.  :hello2:
Didn't rush, just took my time.
I left the filing of one fret end (both sides) to the very last as in indicator, just to compare to the others.
Then did that and finished with those papers.

Wow    those 3M polishing papers are just something else. 
I thought the SS frets were already shinny, hit them with those papers and get blinded.

I'm very happy with myself  :cool01:  that I achieved / learned something I hadn't done before ……. yippie  :blob7:
Looks bloody great.
Feels lovely too.

BTW …
I made myself a neck holder out of a piece wood 3-3/4''  x 1-3/4'' about 27'' long.
Placed 4 nails in (where the neck heel holes are)
Put some, stick on felt at the top for the headstock to rest on and some between the nails for the heel to sit on.
This block I can stick in a metal 4'' bench vise and work at a perfect height … standing.
To hold it all still, I just wrap some tape around the headstock and block of wood.
Can work with necks with tuners on too.

:redflag: ....  Wanna buy it, StewMac  :toothy12:


:icon_scratch:  Bloody hard to take close up pic's of fret ends to show, now they are that shinny.
Have completed 2 necks so far.

I got a few more necks to do so it'll be something to keep me away from the showcase for a while.  :icon_biggrin:

Next victim neck ...

 

[Cagey]

Good for you! Looks great!

I see you were able to get a couple of those diamond fretfiles, too. Just as an aside, those are from Kalamzoo, MI. Nice little town, and is the original home of Gibson guitars.

Means nothing; just thought I'd mention it.

 

[Updown]

:kewlpics:

Are yes, got those files sent out very fast indeed, used them to start then finish with the stewmac ones, then the papers.
I'm glad I got a few stewmac ones, because you put one down somewhere, then  :icon_scratch:  where the bloody hell is it.

Thanks again, all worked like a charm  :icon_thumright:

 

[Jumble Jumble]

OK, so thanks to the information in this thread plus a little improvisation, I did my first fret end shaping and polishing over the last few days too. I had a neck with SS6100s on, and just left bevelled they really are a bit too sharp. I used the

I used the standard StewMac fret end file for the whole job and it worked fine, although I wish they did the exact same file in a diamond version. Still, having it remove metal slowly was no bad thing while I was learning. The first fret I did wasn't exactly great, but the next one was a lot better. After filing I used the StewMac Fret Erasers which are really great and to be honest you could probably leave it at that. But I used MicroMesh polishing papers to take it to the extreme - because why not?

I worked with the neck loose on my lap which was fine, but not perfect. But it's pretty much my only option.

The very last fret I did is the nicest one but only because I know what I'm looking for. All the frets are good and the difference after polishing is extreme. The neck feels incredible to play on now. I must update the thread for it because I finally nailed the setup too (needed a small neck shim).

Here's a picture of a finished fret next to one "as delivered":

And here's one once all the frets were done and all the tape was removed:

The next neck I'm getting will have normal frets so it should take a bit less time. At least now I know I can do it, so I'm happy to spend a bit of money on a diamond crowning file. What I need to know really, is what is a recommended diamond file that is as nice to use as the StewMac fret end shaping file, for that purpose (EDIT: I just re-read the thread and this information is already there).

And what about for levelling (I haven't needed to do that yet)?

 

[Cagey]

Nice job on the frets! You must be very pleased!

And what about for levelling (I haven't needed to do that yet)?

For new necks, you usually don't really need to be too aggressive with the levelling. You may be able to get away with just a fret rocker...

... and a diamond crowning file...

You use an appropriate side of the rocker to span three frets, and see if it rocks. If so, the fret in the middle is high. Mark it with a Sharpie. I usually try rocking on the treble side, middle and bass side of the fret as it's possible for a fret to be high in one area but not another, and you don't want to lower an entire fret if it's already good in some area(s). Once you've gone through the entire neck and marked the high spots, you use the crowning file to lower the high spots. Go slow, and check frequently with the rocker so you don't overdo it.

Once you're done with that, the whole 'board should be level. Usually on new necks, you'll find at least 3 to 5 frets that need some attention, sometimes more.

Even the 300 grit file will leave some aggressive file marks in the frets, so after you're satisfied everything's level, you take a strip of the polishing paper, starting with the green, and fold it over the edge of the crowning file. That has the effect of changing the grit of the file to something higher, while keeping the profile of the crown intact. Use that to smooth the fret up, as if you were continuing to crown it. Change papers to progressively higher grits to get the surface back to a factory finish.

Do all that before you dress the ends, then polish the whole set as you would normally.

If you're working on used necks, you may want to invest in some other tools as you'll have many more frets that need attention and you'll want to attack them wholesale. Otherwise, using the fret rocker method may have you working too hard as well as chasing your tail as you lower so many frets that eventually they all need lowering.

You'll still need the rocker and the crowning file, but you'll also want at least one of these levelling files, if not the set...

I bought some drawer/door pulls at the local hardware and epoxied them on to make them easier to use...

Progress through those and you'll end up with well-levelled frets, after which you can crown, dress and polish them.

 

[Jumble Jumble]

Nice job on the frets! You must be very pleased!

Thanks - that means a lot coming from you! Yeah, I'm really happy with the job. It feels like an expensive luxury guitar now. Looking forward to having well-dressed frets as a starting point rather than a long-delayed update on the next one - it's a year since I "finished" this build!

Thanks for the tips on levelling. I have one used neck with (I think) just one high fret. It went for a full setup about 10 years ago, so either that fret was missed, or I didn't actually ask for levelling, or it's lifted slightly in the meantime. I'm gonna have to wait until payday and then splash out on some files and stuff. They're expensive, but in London I think they will pay for themselves in two necks, if not one.

 

[Cagey]

Thanks - that means a lot coming from you! Yeah, I'm really happy with the job. It feels like an expensive luxury guitar now. Looking forward to having well-dressed frets as a starting point rather than a long-delayed update on the next one - it's a year since I "finished" this build!

I know what you mean. Unless they've gone to a hack, I don't know of anyone who's had a neck properly finished who wouldn't do it again as a matter of course. It's time-consuming (and therefore expensive) so you usually only see it on "luxury" guitars where there's enough money in the thing to justify it, but it's really well worth it.

Thanks for the tips on levelling. I have one used neck with (I think) just one high fret. It went for a full setup about 10 years ago, so either that fret was missed, or I didn't actually ask for levelling, or it's lifted slightly in the meantime. I'm gonna have to wait until payday and then splash out on some files and stuff. They're expensive, but in London I think they will pay for themselves in two necks, if not one.

The fret rocker is a real tattletale, and you gotta have one. I'll guarantee you've got more than one high fret on a 10 year old neck. Using the rocker in conjunction with the crowning file will let you flatten the whole thing, and you'll be able to get your string action lower.

Another couple things you may want to invest in are a real straightedge....

...and a set of feeler gauges...

You especially need those things if you're going to level frets wholesale, but they also come in handy at initial setup. You have to adjust the truss rod until the neck itself is straight before you start any kind of levelling operation, then you want to be able to adjust the truss rod to some known point after the fact so you have the proper relief in the neck. The 18" straightedge is the most handy, and you can get those feeler gauges just about anywhere for less than $10.

 

[Jumble Jumble]

Yup, got those. Wouldn't even be able to do a half-decent setup without them!

I "look forward" to finding all the high frets on this Tele then…

 

[stubhead]

Good golly, you guys must've bought both Stewart and McDonald a yacht apiece.... I like nice tools too, but I can comfortably go out on a thick, sturdy termite-proofed limb here and say there's nothing that can be done with diamond tools that can't be done as well with... sandpaper. Just plain ol' wet/dry gray/green 3M sandpaper, of various grits. The key is how, and that takes a bit of (also-cheap) tool making. Grandma was a Neanderthal...



We happen to have a few sections of Luminlay side dots sticking out of a Stewie's fret guard, cause the camera's all set up. But this time, there is a piece of 0.75" X 1.5" pine there, named "flat." Drill a hole through it the long way, saw through the hole so you have a groove, glue in a piece of inner-tube rubber, saw/sand the edges up to the groove so it's kinda undercut. You have a rubber-lined groove which will do any sort of abrasion asked of it, because you have 220, 320, 400, 600 & 1500 grit sandpaper! Groovier view?



There are a couple of other, secret sandpaper-fueled weapons visible there. One is a piece of 0.25"X0.5" wood lath named "Shiva", with a piece of thin neoprene mousepad glued to it, the other is another piece of lath named "Shakti" similarly armoured with an attached piece of innertube rubber. These are basically just substitute fingertips when the natural set get all woeful and snipey.

I started easing into my sandpaper-based lifestyle many years ago, when it was still a shameful secret among the hip set. However, I keep seeing more and more and MORE different "sharpening systems" for knives and chisels based on some variant of sandpaper, usually the stick-um breed. And since you are so bound and determined to give all your money to the Stew-Mac Charity Fund, even they have come up with an entire leveling "system" involving wood blocks with sandpaper stuck on, which they will happily sell you for 3X Grizzly's price:
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Fretting_supplies/Polishing_and_abrasives/Stikit_Gold_Paper_Self-adhesive_Abrasives.html
(have you priced yachts lately? Jeez!)

I think the big breakthrough has mostly to do with the quality of the adhesives holding the "sand" on, combined with the netty access to just about any commercial grade of product, sized down to an individual's needs by jobbers or resellers keen to turn a bit of profit by buying in bulk and dividing stuff up. I do have some diamond stuff around here, most bought as "sharpening" products because you guys are doing such a bang-up job keeping Stewie solvent, and if I was at all interested in commercial production levels, I would certainly weigh the cost of mo' tool-bling diamonds. But, it would be just about impossible to use more than $2 of sandpaper to do a whole neck's frets, a quarter sheet of this and a quarter sheet of that, if it needed more than that there's something WRONG with the neck that no tools of any value could save. I could also explain that my fret-leveling "file" is a 1200 grit, 8.625" X 2.6.25" Japanese waterstone - WRAPPED UP IN SANDPAPER cause it works better, I have a fret-end-rounder consisting of a Gibson-sized nut blank with a few different grooves filed in - WRAPPED UP IN SANDPAPER - but you get the drift. Beware of sanding shrapnel....

 

[Cagey]

It's true: Mssrs. Stewart and MacDonald have many, many of my shekels, as do the fine folks at Luthier's Mercantile, among others. To me, a good tool is thing of beauty, a joy to behold, a pleasure to work with and is reliable, predictable and repeatable in its performance. At the same time, I'm a firm believer in making tools when it's practical. Even more so when it comes to jigs. Often, I'll spend more time making jigs than doing the actual job. They end up being time savers - but only if you can use them more than once. Which routes us back to buying good tools. Many times, a good tool is twice or more times the price of having something done. So, you have to look at the cost of the tool, the cost of the job, and the likelihood of having to use the tool more than once. It's pretty easy math, and it makes buying tools easy to avoid or justify.

 

[stubhead]

I also have a lot of stuff beamed in from different worlds, as I saw pretty early that just about everything basic that's sold for guitars is also a gunsmith and/or jewelry tool. And there is some profiteering - you can buy Stewie's 11-blade feeler gauge for $25, or a 25-blade one for $11 at any auto supply... :icon_scratch:
Due to inheritances magnified by a genetic predisposition towards drawing, I must have about three whole sets of the precision-cut drawing triangles all the way from 2" to 24", and they rock, and they're straight.... but you can get a whole set for less than Stew's single fret rocker (get the cut ones, not molded...)

I try to steer people away from Stew-Mac not just because of cost, but also to downplay "mojo", "secrets of the masters", the entire atmosphere of preciousness that's used to blow up prices, intimidate common sense, and imbue boards and wires with that "something extra" that.... isn't anything other than good work + knowledge. AND THEN, MUSICAL TALENT AND LONG HARD APPLIED PRACTICE grrr. And, pretty spectacular sacrifices, really - have Clapton & Jagger finally just given up getting married?

There are some makers like Warmoth and Suhr who try to keep their hype down to a dull roar - John Suhr hates "mojo" - but just to remain competitive, they have to yank out the mystical, animist fetish-object idiot-speak all too often. And there's other makers, aw jeez, DeTemple... $7,000 Fender copy guitars - I won't get started... Even Dan Erlewine gets spun by it often enough. And the real reason Dumble amplifiers are so valuable, beside fundamental idiocy, is because Dumble himself is apparently a better gunsmith than amp builder! If you can't find time to knock out a few $25,000 amplifiers because you're too busy building shotguns for oil sheiks, them must be some mojo-y guns, huh? BANG! BANG! arty07:

 

[Cagey]

Don't get me wrong; I'm not Stewie's bitch. They definitely have some abusive pricing practices in some areas - enough to piss off a saint, sometimes. You sorta want to deal with a single supplier for convenience's sake, but you just can't. Makes you wonder what they're thinking. But, knowing that on the going-in side forces you to shop, and that's when you find out about the jeweler's and gunsmith's sites. Some of my trickier files have come from those places. Also, a little ingenuity goes a long way. For instance, Stewie's knob and bushing puller is a cruel joke. If you can't figure out how to do that without spending $50, you deserve to be abused, and probably shouldn't be working on guitars.

You also have to be careful about shipping costs. It hardly makes sense to save $5 on a tool/part/supply at a different site if the other site is going to nail you for $9 shipping. If you already have an order going, tossing something else in the box often doesn't change the shipping much, if at all, unless it's the kind of place that charges shipping based on order value. Fortunately, not too many places are like that. Oddly enough, Warmoth is.

 

[cheekymunky]

, Stewie's knob and bushing puller

Knob and Bushing Puller? WOW now I've seen everything, all those 5 star reviews too.
I would be embarrassed to own or even sell something like that.

 

[Steve_Karl]

Good golly, you guys must've bought both Stewart and McDonald a yacht apiece....

Yea. Those fret end dressing files at $12.xx a pop!

Many years ago I went to the local (mom 'n' pop) hard ware store and got a small triangle file and when I told the guy what I was going to use it for and we discussed it a bit, he put it on a the grinder for me and took the cutting teeth off of the 3 points of the triangle and rounded those ends, so that the now smooth part of the file can ride on the fretboard or masking tape and do no damage.
All told less that $2.00. I think I remember it being $1.25 + tax.