Warmoth Stratocaster 2014 Rosewood with True Temperament Frets??
- Thread starter Hbom
- Start date
DavyDave53
Senior Member
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Now, that's innovation for you.
ThtOthrPrsn
Junior Member
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At first I saw your title and thought "Awesome, let me check this out"
Then I saw you said it's $1800 and said "HA, well let's see how it looks anyway"
Then I saw it was JUST THE NECK for $1800 and I immediately closed the tab on my browser.
My opinion in short: NOPE!
Then I saw you said it's $1800 and said "HA, well let's see how it looks anyway"
Then I saw it was JUST THE NECK for $1800 and I immediately closed the tab on my browser.
My opinion in short: NOPE!
line6man
Epic Member
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That neck appears to have two different fretboard woods. Now I'm all for heartwood/sapwood cuts of one wood, but when you join two woods like that, it just looks silly. Is this going to turn out to be one of those wacky claims about balancing the tonality by using different woods under the strings? If so, wouldn't you want the Rosewood under the higher pitched strings, and the Maple under the lower pitched strings?
A properly compensated nut (similar in design to the Earvana nut) combined with properly spaced frets, properly crowned frets, and compensated saddles, will achieve the same results as the True Temperament system, but only for equal temperament. In other words, if one were to "de-squiggle" the True Temperament frets (on an equal tempered guitar) while keeping the distance between each fret the same for each string, you'd end up with a squiggled nut, like the Earvana nut. You'd also, of course, end up with a squiggled bridge saddle array (compensated bridge saddles). In order to play in other temperaments, a curved fret system is required. The guitar in the video posted by Hbom probably has frets installed for well temperament because all the chords sound incredibly clear through the heavy overdrive. And as for any well tempered instrument, the chords will not ring true in all keys.
Interestingly enough, I would bet that the amount of additional fret squiggle required for an unequal temperament guitar would be minimal if the guitar was set up with a compensated nut and straight frets from the get go.
Also, I've been able to get the same "clear-intervals-with-overdrive" sound by increasing the finger pressure on either the top or bottom note in an interval, although I'm not as good at it as I'd like.
Interestingly enough, I would bet that the amount of additional fret squiggle required for an unequal temperament guitar would be minimal if the guitar was set up with a compensated nut and straight frets from the get go.
Also, I've been able to get the same "clear-intervals-with-overdrive" sound by increasing the finger pressure on either the top or bottom note in an interval, although I'm not as good at it as I'd like.
Just to clarify -
A guitar with a properly compensated nut and properly adjusted bridge saddles will have the IDENTICAL intonation as a guitar with the equal tempered True Temperament system. As an engineer, it really bugs me when someone devises a flashy but overly complicated /expensive solution to a problem that has already been solved with a simple solution.
A guitar with a properly compensated nut and properly adjusted bridge saddles will have the IDENTICAL intonation as a guitar with the equal tempered True Temperament system. As an engineer, it really bugs me when someone devises a flashy but overly complicated /expensive solution to a problem that has already been solved with a simple solution.
Re-Pete
Hero Member
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JPilot said:
I've always wondered why no one invented a nut that had adjustable saddles. Smaller & similar to the tune o matic bridge. Adjustment at both ends of the strings travel would surely nail the intonation of the string? Maybe it would be too much of a PIA for the repairers to set up? :dontknow:
i seem to remember reading that true temperment is a temperment (not equal temperement) similar to a popularly used temperment but can't remember the names right now. but a lot of piano tuners are using a version of equal temperment that could be adapted to the guitar. i would think the issue with tempering the guitar is that with different chord forms it could never work out with straight frets. i mean you can temper open strings but the fretted notes don't work out exactly the same in al positions even with special nuts and weird intonation procedures. the only possible temperment to be perfect would be even, but even temperment sounds bad. obviously true temperment necks are an exception but temperment in and of itself can only be a better compromise. there is no such thing are perfect harmony everywhere without synthesis which can also sound bad, as humans we seem to accept some of the imperfections and even prefer them so why go to such engineering measures to make a costly fretting procedure? can we get a better compromise without bent frets?.
there is a technique some piano tuners use that is technically even tempered, or well it's close, it might never end up identical on two different instruments due to the nature of the process, it ends up with a little stretch that gives more near perfect harmonies. instead of using a circle of fifths or a circle of thirds where the octave ends up being off, they use a circle of fifths with an extra octave over the fifth. with this it prevents the mathematical error of the fifth from compounding over 12 notes to add up to a noticable amount by the time you hit the octave, you still end up with stretch, but a bit less. and by making this particular harmonic the point with perfect harmony isn't enough to mess up the fundemental in a way that sounds bad and the technique adapts itself to the imperfections of the harmonic stretch within the strings themselves, if you use thicker strings you end up with a slightly different variation.
basically when a string vibrates it carries several harmonics but when measured these harmonics are slightly higher in pitch than the perfect ratio they should be. thicker strings tend to have more error. a 12th fret harmonic is a little more than double the pitch of the open string, this is 1 part of why there is dissonance in even temperment, the other part is that there are no perfect harmonies in even temperment even if it's computer generated without physics mucking things up, the notes only end up close to whole number ratios not on them. the process of using an octave + 5th seems to do a good job of making a better compromise by making some near perfect harmonies and doing it using the real harmonics generated by the strings. and all that can be applied to guitar with slight nut compensation and by modifying your intonation procedure. no electric tuners in the intonation process. perhaps a strobe tuner if you can apply it properly, but it can be done pretty well with a naked ear listening for beats in the harmony. I start out intonating opens strings to the 19th fret instead of the 12th just listening back and forth. i tune the "D" with a tuner holding it at the 14th fret and tune open A to that, then i tune the open high "e" in to the open "A" then i tune adjacent strings holding the 14th fret on the higher adjacent string. im not listening for the fundemantal, i listen for the least beats in the harmonics, you should get a pretty harmonious 5th like this. if things aren't in check when i get up to the high e I retune the A to a tuner then recheck the open A against the e as tuning may flex the neck and change things. then i can play with different combos that hive the 5th +octave to try to decide where to play with the intonation. i haven't played with nut compensation along with this but it's theoretically possible to intonate both the nut and the saddles this way if you spend the time to work out a technique.
there is a technique some piano tuners use that is technically even tempered, or well it's close, it might never end up identical on two different instruments due to the nature of the process, it ends up with a little stretch that gives more near perfect harmonies. instead of using a circle of fifths or a circle of thirds where the octave ends up being off, they use a circle of fifths with an extra octave over the fifth. with this it prevents the mathematical error of the fifth from compounding over 12 notes to add up to a noticable amount by the time you hit the octave, you still end up with stretch, but a bit less. and by making this particular harmonic the point with perfect harmony isn't enough to mess up the fundemental in a way that sounds bad and the technique adapts itself to the imperfections of the harmonic stretch within the strings themselves, if you use thicker strings you end up with a slightly different variation.
basically when a string vibrates it carries several harmonics but when measured these harmonics are slightly higher in pitch than the perfect ratio they should be. thicker strings tend to have more error. a 12th fret harmonic is a little more than double the pitch of the open string, this is 1 part of why there is dissonance in even temperment, the other part is that there are no perfect harmonies in even temperment even if it's computer generated without physics mucking things up, the notes only end up close to whole number ratios not on them. the process of using an octave + 5th seems to do a good job of making a better compromise by making some near perfect harmonies and doing it using the real harmonics generated by the strings. and all that can be applied to guitar with slight nut compensation and by modifying your intonation procedure. no electric tuners in the intonation process. perhaps a strobe tuner if you can apply it properly, but it can be done pretty well with a naked ear listening for beats in the harmony. I start out intonating opens strings to the 19th fret instead of the 12th just listening back and forth. i tune the "D" with a tuner holding it at the 14th fret and tune open A to that, then i tune the open high "e" in to the open "A" then i tune adjacent strings holding the 14th fret on the higher adjacent string. im not listening for the fundemantal, i listen for the least beats in the harmonics, you should get a pretty harmonious 5th like this. if things aren't in check when i get up to the high e I retune the A to a tuner then recheck the open A against the e as tuning may flex the neck and change things. then i can play with different combos that hive the 5th +octave to try to decide where to play with the intonation. i haven't played with nut compensation along with this but it's theoretically possible to intonate both the nut and the saddles this way if you spend the time to work out a technique.
C
Cederick
Guest
Actually, with my Evertune bridge my guitar sounds so perfectly intonated (to my human ears) that I don't think TT frets are really necessary. I tried a friends guitar with TT frets, and open chords with many strings sounded awesome, but I don't think soloing or simple metal/rock riffing really benefits from it.AutoBat said:
But Evertune DOES sound more intonated than a regular bridge.
Dan0 lifts the lid on the can of worms...
Your guitar is not in tune.
The fretting is wrong.
Equal Temperament is wong.
Say hello to Harry Partch and 43 tones per octave.
his book Genesis of a Music tells you more than you want to know. Suffice to say that all those little bends we do are more related to getting proper intonation and avoiding the evil of Equal Temperament than what has been termed the 'blue note'.
He built fretless guitars with small brass tacks hammered into the fretboard to show where to put your fingers.
A pair of those cheap Ibanez 8 string guitars could just about let you build something like the Surrogate Kithara 2 that Harry made. He tended to use them more like a harp if you ask me, lots of arpeggios.
Your guitar is not in tune.
The fretting is wrong.
Equal Temperament is wong.
Say hello to Harry Partch and 43 tones per octave.
his book Genesis of a Music tells you more than you want to know. Suffice to say that all those little bends we do are more related to getting proper intonation and avoiding the evil of Equal Temperament than what has been termed the 'blue note'.
He built fretless guitars with small brass tacks hammered into the fretboard to show where to put your fingers.
A pair of those cheap Ibanez 8 string guitars could just about let you build something like the Surrogate Kithara 2 that Harry made. He tended to use them more like a harp if you ask me, lots of arpeggios.
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