Two seperate pickups selectors?

[mwbjr13]

Here's what I'm thinking. I want to have a HSH with a 5-way blade switch and a 3-way toggle. and some way to switch between the two. What I'm thinking is when the 3-way is "on" it acts like a two humbucker LP style guitar and when the 5-way is "on" the humbuckers split and it then acts like a strat.
I'm thinking a Fender S-1 in the way to go but I don't even know if this is possible. Any suggestions?

 

[line6man]

It would be a lot easier to just run a DP3T/4PDT On-On-On to select series/outer coils or inner coils/parallel, for both humbuckers, into a five way switch.

 

[mwbjr13]

I've considered the DP3T/4PDT method but I would really loke to do something way different. The guitar I'm planning on putting this on is a tele body with strat curves, a strat pickguard and a strat neck so i really wat something unique to go with this.

 

[line6man]

I've considered the DP3T/4PDT method but I would really loke to do something way different. The guitar I'm planning on putting this on is a tele body with strat curves, a strat pickguard and a strat neck so i really wat something unique to go with this.

With wiring schemes, it is more important to be practical and functional than to find some unique way of going about for the sake of doing that. A DP3T switch allows a setup that is very simple, so thus, it remains practical while allowing versatility.

Trying to coil split two pickups and then select between two pickup selectors will require five poles. Two to ground the series links or bring them into the hot leads to defeat one coil of each pickup (Assuming series is standard.); two to switch the pickup hots between inputs on each pickup selector switch; one to select outputs from the pickup selectors. This is necessary to prevent the middle pickup from being switched in in positions two, three and four of the "Strat" switch, and to prevent any switch pop if the unused pickup selector is switched inadvertently. Unfortunately, a Fender S1 switch is 4PDT, and an appropriate five pole rotary toggle would be rare/difficult to find. If you are willing to add a battery, you could try adding poles by means of triggering small relays. In any case, it is a bit ridiculous when you can simply coil split the pickups with the S1 switch (Or a DP3T mini toggle to get three options.), then run one pickup selector.

 

[Hobosaur]

Pssssh, this is easy. You have the signal from the 3 pickups go to both the 3 way and the 5 way. You wire the 3 way with just the humbuckers like you would a LP. You wire the 5-way like this:

You keep the ground wires separate between the 3 way and the 5 way (so that the ground from the 5 way doesn't cut the coils when you're on the 3 way). You wire the leads from each of the selector switches to a DPDT switch like this:

After that, you can have one volume, and one tone (who needs two?), which then goes to the output jack.

 

[mwbjr13]

Thanks everyone for the input, I really appreciate it  :cool01:

 

[line6man]

Pssssh, this is easy. You have the signal from the 3 pickups go to both the 3 way and the 5 way. You wire the 3 way with just the humbuckers like you would a LP. You wire the 5-way like this:

You keep the ground wires separate between the 3 way and the 5 way (so that the ground from the 5 way doesn't cut the coils when you're on the 3 way). You wire the leads from each of the selector switches to a DPDT switch like this:

After that, you can have one volume, and one tone (who needs two?), which then goes to the output jack.

That won't work. The humbuckers have to be switched between the pickup selectors. If they connect to both, the middle position of the three way will give neck and bridge, even if one is soloed on the five way. Positions two and four can turn on the neck pickup for the three way switch, as well, unless you disconnect the middle pickup's ground.

Side note, you can do this with only four poles, if you don't want the traditional two tone setup with the five way, since you would have the second pole of the five way open for coil splitting.

 

[stubhead]

I wired my #1 in an attempt to get a Morsian range from fewer pickups. For me to cover the bar band pantheon, I needed a singlecoil neck sound and a humbucking bridge. It took me a few tries, but I ended up with a stacked Lawrence singlecoil in the neck. This goes to a concentric tone/volume, which goes to the 3-way and out. The Lawrence L500XL in the bridge goes to a "Superswitch" wired to select either the front coil, the back coil, or both coils in series, parallel or out-of-phase. That switch's output goes to another concentric volume/tone pot, which then goes to the three-way and out.

It's the most versatile thing I could imagine, I can get a perfect Strat neck pickup SRV tone, and any sort of blended tones except the specific quacks that are needed to cover Knopfler and that Robert Cray tone. But I don't "need" those tones as much as an entire range of the more-Gibsony blended-pickup tones. With the exception of the two above, Strat players channeling major "quacks" sound extremely generic to me. And they always do that thing with their lips.

On a practical basis, I don't like & never use the L500's out-of-phase tone, so this can be wired with a four-way Telecaster blade, which is a whole hell of a lot easier than the Superswitch (that's going on my upcoming build). On an semi-practical basis, I rarely use the single coil of the L500 closest to the bridge except at home, so if stage practicality was paramount you could wire the HB with a series, parallel and tap mini-switch, as long as you tapped it so as to choose the coil furthest from the bridge. But there's no downside to having both coils available, especially as the L500 XL essentially sounds like two good loud Telecaster pickups in a humbucking housing. Which can't be had that way, but Lawrence does some sneaky stuff with inductance and fields so that his humbuckers don't lose highs and the coils don't screw each other out of goodies. I can definitely see where a different guitar wood, scale length etc. would "need" that coil more, so why not have it there?

I dunno - with the exception of the four-way instead of a five-position for the bridge humbucking, I can only copy this rig again to make the best sounding guitar I know how. 70% of the time the three-way's in the middle and I just use three positions of the humbucker's switch and fiddle with the volumes and the bridge PU's tone. If you're not used to a Gibson setup and all the nifty things available with both pickups on, this would have a steep learning curve. But doing hard things well sort of tends to. "Five EASY ways to...." It ain't easy. That's why most people suck at it.

 

[Hobosaur]

That won't work. The humbuckers have to be switched between the pickup selectors. If they connect to both, the middle position of the three way will give neck and bridge, even if one is soloed on the five way. Positions two and four can turn on the neck pickup for the three way switch, as well, unless you disconnect the middle pickup's ground.

The selector switches wouldn't interfere with eachother, since only one is in the circuit at a time because of the DPDT switch.

 

[line6man]

That won't work. The humbuckers have to be switched between the pickup selectors. If they connect to both, the middle position of the three way will give neck and bridge, even if one is soloed on the five way. Positions two and four can turn on the neck pickup for the three way switch, as well, unless you disconnect the middle pickup's ground.

The selector switches wouldn't interfere with eachother, since only one is in the circuit at a time because of the DPDT switch.

The switch only works with the outputs, while the pickup selectors remain connected to the pickups. As I said, this allows the three way to run the humbuckers parallel, and the five way to add in the middle pickup.

Draw out a schematic of the setup, and you'll see it.


As a side note, it is not a good idea to be switching chassis grounds on switches. Chassis grounds need to always see a low impedance path to the ground potential, even if the circuit floats or is isolated. That's a basic safety feature.

 

[Hobosaur]

So what you're saying is that the in between positions of the selector switches would connect the leads, forming a series link that would affect the sound even when switched over to the opposite selector? I can see where you're coming from, but I have a question (which I'm sure I'm using atrocious terminology to ask): why would a pickup pull signal from a ground source that has 5k+ ohms between it, when it has a ground with continuity to use?

 

[Patrick from Davis]

Why not wire is like you would normally for each switch, and the have two leads going to the vol.  Use a push pull pot on the vol knob to select which switch goes to the volume knob.  Keep them separate that way.
Patrick

 

[tfarny]

You pick the 5 tones you will actually use, write them down, then find a way to put them all on ONE mega-switch, with at most one extra option on a push-pull.

You don't need parallel out of phase options, you don't need a tapped neck bucker by itself option if you have a single in the middle, etc. Most of the "weird" options you can wire up don't actually sound all that great.

More controls = more things to screw up on a dark stage.

 

[Dan025]

there wouldn't be a series link, theyd be in parrallel, the grounds are hardwired and the 2/4 positions will wire the middlw pup directly parallel to the buckers only thing changing with the 2way is the path it takes to the output. the 2/4 positions on the 5-way would cut the middle pup into the mix and 1/2/4/5 would divide the humbuckers regardless of the 2way position. I'm too lazy to draw a diagram with arrows showing the direction of flow but that wiring would have unpredicted(well not unpredicted by me or joey) results. only position 3 on the 5-way would work as it was designed when using the 3way.

even worse happens when using the 5way. the buckers are in parrallel if you leave the 3way in the middle. you would need to remember to keep that to one end or the other.

prs did something similar with a 3way and a 5way but it had 15 combos and they had to get custom swithes (I think the 3way was 3pole and 5way was 4poles) there was so many leads they had to use computer type ribon cables. thays how unpredictable multiple switches get. they needed all that to organize it in a way they didn't have issues. ernie ball needed to computer control otherwise passive electronics on their system. whatever that thing was called.

its always best to keep it simple.

 

[line6man]

So what you're saying is that the in between positions of the selector switches would connect the leads, forming a series link that would affect the sound even when switched over to the opposite selector? I can see where you're coming from, but I have a question (which I'm sure I'm using atrocious terminology to ask): why would a pickup pull signal from a ground source that has 5k+ ohms between it, when it has a ground with continuity to use?

Look at what happens when the five-way switch is selected, but the three-way is set to neck+bridge. The neck and bridge pickups are connected in parallel, which means that you will hear both pickups in four positions on the five-way switch, since any position that selects one of the two will get both in parallel.

Now look at what happens when the three-way switch is selected, but the five-way is set to neck+middle or middle+bridge. If the neck pickup is soloed on the three-way, the five-way can still join the middle pickup parallel to it. The same goes for the bridge pickup.

I am not sure what you're asking about the impedance to the ground potential. Note, however, that any time there is an impedance of zero Ohms parallel to any other impedance, the total impedance is zero Ohms.
The usual formula for parallel impedance is ZTotal=1/([1/Z1]+[1/Z2]+...[1/Zn]) ,however, at 1/([1/0]+[1/x]) the answer is undefined. A different formula can be used to determine parallel impedance with only two values; ZTotal=(Z1*Z2)/(Z1+Z2)
In this case would come out to 0= (0*x)/(0+x). All real numbers greater than zero will allow ZTotal to equal 0.

 

[stubhead]

ernie ball needed to computer control otherwise passive electronics on their system. whatever that thing was called.

"The Game Changer." Haven't you noticed how different everything has been ever since?

 

[Dan025]

hobosour

what your problem is looking at this is you only are looking at how the pixkups connect to the commons (outputs in this diagram) as if electricity only flows that way. what you're no seeing is that if 2 pickups are connected to the same common they are also connected to each other. to take a selector out of the circuit totally you need to disconnect the inputs, not the output. to do this you would need atleast 4 poles. one for each hot and 1 for the ground for the coil splitter. (unless you want that active. I'm sure joey will see someone even I overlooked. well have fun figuring that out.

 

[line6man]

hobosour

what your problem is looking at this is you only are looking at how the pixkups connect to the commons (outputs in this diagram) as if electricity only flows that way. what you're no seeing is that if 2 pickups are connected to the same common they are also connected to each other. to take a selector out of the circuit totally you need to disconnect the inputs, not the output. to do this you would need atleast 4 poles. one for each hot and 1 for the ground for the coil splitter. (unless you want that active. I'm sure joey will see someone even I overlooked. well have fun figuring that out.

I explained this already. You have to switch both the inputs and outputs. Switching either alone will cause issues.

Two poles for input switching, one pole for output switching, one or two poles for coil splitting, depending on how you use the second pole of the five-way switch. This can be done with a Fender S1 switch, assuming there is only tone pot per-pickup selector or one master. 

 

[Dan025]

I guess I had a different solution in mind. well I'm not gonna get into it now maybe ill post a diagram latter.

 

[Hobosaur]

Look at what happens when the five-way switch is selected, but the three-way is set to neck+bridge. The neck and bridge pickups are connected in parallel, which means that you will hear both pickups in four positions on the five-way switch, since any position that selects one of the two will get both in parallel.

Now look at what happens when the three-way switch is selected, but the five-way is set to neck+middle or middle+bridge. If the neck pickup is soloed on the three-way, the five-way can still join the middle pickup parallel to it. The same goes for the bridge pickup.

You're completely right! I was visualizing the whole thing wrong. Consider everything I said redacted.