Tube amps

[Nightclub Dwight]

Hey Hannaugh, you could always get some wild maple boards and dye them blue with a blue burst and get some creme piping for the seams.  :icon_thumright:

+1. That sounds incredible. 

 

[mayfly]

ok, I just fired up my deluxe reverb re-issue today at lunch (I brought it to work - It's now my "work" amp).

It is one sweet sounding amp.  I knew that it sounded good, but I forgot that it was so, er, beautiful <sniff>.

Hannaugh, you gotta play through one of these things.

 

[hannaugh]

Okay, I want to build an amp.  Here's the thing though; I need a book or something that really explains in depth about how they work.  I don't even own a big amp, guys.  I just have a couple of practice amps.  When I go to play these things at the store, I don't always even know what some of the knobs are supposed to do. 

I've been looking online for book, and it seems like there are books about amp maintenance and books about various models and even books with schematics.  That stuff is great, but since I can't really look through the books online before I buy them, I have no way of knowing if they are going to be helpful or not, because chances are I'll get them and look at the schematics and it will look like alien language because I don't really know the basics.  I haven't been able to find a book that is a how-to of designing and building, which is really what I need.  I need Building a Tube Amp: A Guide for Idiots, and I haven't found anything that looks like that. 

If I hadn't been offered free parts, I would probably get a Ceriatone kit, which I'm guessing comes with instructions, but I don't really want to do that if I have access to some free stuff.

So what should I do?  What books would you recommend that won't just fly over my head?

 

[Mor Paul]

I do not believe Ceriatone comes with instructions. It gives diagrams and layouts.

 

[jimh]

Okay, I want to build an amp.  Here's the thing though; I need a book or something that really explains in depth about how they work.  I don't even own a big amp, guys.  I just have a couple of practice amps.  When I go to play these things at the store, I don't always even know what some of the knobs are supposed to do. 

I've been looking online for book, and it seems like there are books about amp maintenance and books about various models and even books with schematics.  That stuff is great, but since I can't really look through the books online before I buy them, I have no way of knowing if they are going to be helpful or not, because chances are I'll get them and look at the schematics and it will look like alien language because I don't really know the basics.   I haven't been able to find a book that is a how-to of designing and building, which is really what I need.  I need Building a Tube Amp: A Guide for Idiots, and I haven't found anything that looks like that. 

If I hadn't been offered free parts, I would probably get a Ceriatone kit, which I'm guessing comes with instructions, but I don't really want to do that if I have access to some free stuff.

So what should I do?  What books would you recommend that won't just fly over my head?

Most importantly.....Dont be afraid.
You've got everything you need right here on the forum.  Plenty of builders and techs and engineers that do this stuff all the time.  CB obviously, Mayfly, Patrick FD, Iv'e done a few scratch build kits, and rebuilt a 70's Bassman, theres loads of us.  This is the best resource you can get for free.

Max is right the Ceriatones don't come with instructions per se (at least mine didn't anyway) but you do get a circuit diagram and a colour component layout diagram which is very easy to follow.  These are the best kits I've seen. in terms of range and quality of products. (thats not to say there aren't other good kits out there)

My Torres kit came a with a colour instruction book which covered most stuff, from the basic workings, to which order to put it together in.
Whilst Dan Torres gets a bit of a bad rep from some people, his book is pretty good.  No really deep mathsy type stuff, but it goes into enough detail where a beginner would need it.
http://www.torresengineering.com/inbydantor.html

For more technical reading, look at Valve Amplifiers, by Morgan Jones and Building Valve Amplifiers, also by Jones.  Very technical but written in a way that doesn't overwhelm the reader. Funny too. They are primairly aimed at Hi-Fi stuff, but the principles are all there. With the exception that Hi-FI aims for minimum distortion whilst guitar generally goes for max dist.

Be brave and get stuck in.  :glasses9:

 

[Death by Uberschall]

I had Dan Torres modify one of my power amps and he did some mods to a friend of mines Bassman head. He does good work. I've got his tube amp book, lots of info on the basics of circuit design and how they operate. But none of the books will tell you everything about the designer's mojo, meaning they're not gonna give out their "trade" secrets as to why their designs sound better. That comes from component selection and designs of each components internal aspects, i.e. transformer windings, one off caps, etc.

 

[Patrick from Davis]

What you are talking about Hannaugh is the unfortunate dark side of the process.  There are a lot of resource but no real idiots guide.  It gets more confusing as you go along because there are several schools of lingo as well.  The saving feature about all of this is the enthusiasts on the boards.  A Mesa is not a Marshall is not a Fender is not a...  There are tricks and goofy-ness to all of them, in multiple areas.  But, the Amp Geeks out there are happy to help.  While I would not claim to know nearly as much about the subject as others around here, I know how to find what I need to know, or more importantly how to ask for help on the subject.  You'll pick up information along the way, because it would be overwhelming to get it all at once.  For background sake, I had no experience with electronics other than a physics class that I tended to sleep in most of the time.  The classroom was too warm and it was a night class, bad mix.  I decided I wanted to learn about tube amps and read a bunch online.  I was unemployed at that time, so I had to get another job before I could build one.  Then I got that job and decided to build one.  I followed the one page of instructions and colored diagrams I downloaded.  I asked a couple of questions and blazed a trail.  All of the time I learned more and became a much better shopper.  I have books on the subject, but they don't often answer the odd ball questions that come up.  Soooo...

My main point is this.  You do not have to finish this before Finals in January.  You have decided you want to build an amp.  That is great.  You have to find the kinda of sound you want.  OK, you might want to find why those amps have that sound.  Wheee, reading.  Then you figure out model, year, and perhaps mods (there are loads of these, some are classic for a reason as well.)  The best part is, you do not have to buy and build it in a week.  You can spend some time figuring out what you want and how to go about doing that.  If there are several ways, you can buy parts and try the different circuits/sounds.  This is the great part.  You find which sounds fit you, and more or less why if you are the curious sort.  If you are wondering about what the knobs do, just ask and the group will surely answer.  Sometimes the group will argue about why different generations of amps and their respective knobs are not equal.  Those alien schematics become old pals, and you can scan across them and tell a lot about an amp after a while.  Certainly it is nice to have the books, but I find them to behave like an Encyclopedia.  The facts are there, and worded very eloquently, but I rarely crack it open.

After typing all of that, my advice is to ask questions on the boards.  It just seems that while all amps do the same thing, there are way too many ways to do it to list off.  There is certainly a book that is a good starting point, and I'll leave that up to someone else to point you at.  The books I got were not what I really hoped for, partially my fault.  The boards were where I found more gems than anywhere.
Patrick

PS, I agree with Mayfly, the Deluxe Reverb is one of those amps. 

 

[hannaugh]

I guess what I need to find is a good glossary of terminology, because I read stuff like this:

"The grid-leak resistors (in a cathode bias amp) are usually in the range of 220K - 470K. Oddly enough, the best-sounding value for the first stage was 120K. Surprising, since lower resistance here attenuates the signal somewhat. The specific frequency response overshadowed any signal loss. The second stage grid-leak resistor is a more typical 220K."

and what I see is this:

"Badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers, mushroom mushroom! badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers, snaaaaake snaaaaake, oooooh it's a snaaaaaake!"

 

[Death by Uberschall]

I guess what I need to find is a good glossary of terminology, because I read stuff like this:

"The grid-leak resistors (in a cathode bias amp) are usually in the range of 220K - 470K. Oddly enough, the best-sounding value for the first stage was 120K. Surprising, since lower resistance here attenuates the signal somewhat. The specific frequency response overshadowed any signal loss. The second stage grid-leak resistor is a more typical 220K."

and what I see is this:

"Badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers, mushroom mushroom! badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers, snaaaaake snaaaaake, oooooh it's a snaaaaaake!"

You're about to get into the "Information overload".

For a first build I would recommend finding what amp you like the sound of the best, period, just find it. Then look for a kit or schematic to build it from. You are going to get so lost so fast you'll regret taking it on once you get started if you dig that deep into the design aspects of it.

Just find it and build it. Then, once it's up and running, play it for a while, decide what you would like to change about it, then start looking into how each component value affects the tone and feel of the amp. Tweak from there. :icon_thumright:

 

[Patrick from Davis]

Yeah, DbU is correct.  Find yer amp.  You can always find a list of things to do to it later.  I bought a kit.  Then before it was in a box I added and subtracted parts according to the descriptions of what the mods would do.  Angry JCM800 and whatever.  My experience is it is fun, some just change your whole day they make your amp sound so right.  Others, ehh...  A lot of those terms in the literature, blah blah blah...  Build it first then experiment.  At that point you can relate sounds to terms.  And information overload will happen anyways.  I just recently worked out why one of the mods makes my amp sound the way it does.  I know it made the difference, I was told it would, but it now jives with the hamsters upstairs.
Patrick

 

[Mor Paul]

"Badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers, mushroom mushroom! badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers, snaaaaake snaaaaake, oooooh it's a snaaaaaake!"

Oh, please, no.

 

[jimh]

I agree entirely with Patrick and DbU....... Get stuck in, find the amp, then find the kit, and then build it asking questions as you go.

 

[mayfly]

I guess what I need to find is a good glossary of terminology, because I read stuff like this:

"The grid-leak resistors (in a cathode bias amp) are usually in the range of 220K - 470K. Oddly enough, the best-sounding value for the first stage was 120K. Surprising, since lower resistance here attenuates the signal somewhat. The specific frequency response overshadowed any signal loss. The second stage grid-leak resistor is a more typical 220K."

and what I see is this:

"Badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers, mushroom mushroom! badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers badgers, snaaaaake snaaaaake, oooooh it's a snaaaaaake!"

You're about to get into the "Information overload".

For a first build I would recommend finding what amp you like the sound of the best, period, just find it. Then look for a kit or schematic to build it from. You are going to get so lost so fast you'll regret taking it on once you get started if you dig that deep into the design aspects of it.

Just find it and build it. Then, once it's up and running, play it for a while, decide what you would like to change about it, then start looking into how each component value affects the tone and feel of the amp. Tweak from there. :icon_thumright:

+1.  There is too much to jump into for a scratch build the first time. 

 

[mayfly]

Hey Hannaugh,

Have you seen this?

http://www.allenamps.com/sweetspot.php

 

[jimh]

Hey Hannaugh,

Have you seen this?

http://www.allenamps.com/sweetspot.php

Oooooh....... Thats tasty.......  I want want a 1x15 Sweet Spot......... Reckon that'd be fat.

 

[stubhead]

The leading amp stud at the Steel guitar Forum (this guy does nice work) has a 4X 10" Fender Bantam bass amp he's rebuilt to blackface Super specs up for sale - $600. He's getting kind of a niche reputation for taking the off-name Fenders, like the tube PA heads, and revoicing them to legendary-tone status, but not legendary pricing. The real Supers are running around $2200 these days.
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=167788

 

[jackthehack]

Memorize this page, pop quiz later: http://www.aikenamps.com/AmpTerms.html

+37 to info overload; you don't need to be an electrical engineer to assemble a point-to-point tube amp from a kit, rather just the ability to read/follow some relatively simple diagrams/instructions and a modicum of soldering/mechanical assembly skills.

Mayfly; the Sweet Spots are out of her stated price range...

Back to the chase; the FIRST thing you need to do is nail down EXACTLY what type of amp you want to buy/build. From your previous reportage, it sounds like you need to spend a lot more time in the music store playing your own guitar through some different amps and figure out what all the knobs do, etc.

From way back at the start of this thread, it sounded like you needed an amp in the 15-25 watt range. In terms of what is available in kits, you'd be looking at a dual EL84 or dual 6V6 tube design; what is readily available in kit forms would be the dual EL84 being along the lines of a Marshall 18/20 watt lead design, the dual 6V6 circuit something along the lines of a Fender Deluxe Reverb 5E3 design.

Obviously, the Fender Deluxe Reverb can be found in a lot of music stores; some amps that use a dual EL84 design would be the Fender Blues/Hot Rod Jr.,  Blackheart 15 watt Handsome Devil head or combo, there are others, but not too many stores stock the Marshall 1974X handwired head or combo.

Figure out which direction you'd want to go in, then we can take it from there...

 

[Kostas]

... Back to the chase; the FIRST thing you need to do is nail down EXACTLY what type of amp you want to buy/build. From your previous reportage, it sounds like you need to spend a lot more time in the music store playing your own guitar through some different amps and figure out what all the knobs do, etc...

If you never had a tube amp that's the first thing you have to do. Play as more as you can in stores with your guitar & pedals, then buy one and live with it. Play inside, outside, alone, with a band, quiet, loud etc. Only if you play with the amp for a period of time you will find out what you like and what you don't like. Then you can start reading about amps and see what you want to build (Fender or Vox or Marshall type).
As I said before, if you want great cleans a Silverface Fender is the way to go. You can afford it now and you can sell it in the future if you don't want it anymore.

 

[hannaugh]

Yeah, I need to take my LP and my little notebook to all the music stores in the area.  Perhaps I will do that tomorrow... Hopefully I'll find a shop with some knowledgeable sales people who can actually be bothered to answer my questions, unlike a certain shop I visited recently.

 

[jackthehack]

where did you move to again?