Trying to tame my damn Floyd (SOLVED!!!)

[thearmofbarlow]

If you got your Floyd Rose from Warmoth there should be a retainer bar supplied.

There is no reason to use a retainer bar on a tilted headstock. They're basically a string tree, intended for non-tilting headstocks. You see them on tilted headstocks sometimes because whoever installed the thing has no understanding of how the system actually works.

:icon_scratch: I beg to differ.

Failing to find the source of the problem can only be a lack of ability on the "problem solvers" behalf. It's OK not knowing everything about everything. It's not OK to hide your own shortcomings with fairy tales.

:headbang:
You, I like. 
:icon_biggrin:
I see this crap too often elsewhere. "Well sometimes you just have to work around the problem..."

Uh, no. It's wood and metal. Man has had mastery over these materials for hundreds or thousands of years. By not fixing the problem you're simply being lazy and/or cheap.

Problem is the low E string go sharp after playing with the trem arm... Now it seems like the A string goes sharp too but I have not investigated much yet

The only way this could be happening is if the lock for those strings is not tight enough and the string is slipping through the nut one way, but not the other. I've encountered this problem a few times and every time it was an issue with the locknut.

Easy stuff... IIRC you mentioned it's a new unit. This should preclude any wear, but check the nut and locks anyway since they can wear a lot faster than you would expect. Overtightening is like meth for locknuts. Not. Even. Once.

If everything looks good, and it should, try swapping the locks around. There may be a strange manufacturing glitch or something similar. See if that helps.

Outside of those things I'd probably have to have the guitar in my hands to make a really good run at diagnosing the problem.

 

[pabloman]

Finally, there's such a thing as "Twilight Zone" guitars, where mysterious things happen for no apparent reason.

:icon_scratch: I beg to differ.

Failing to find the source of the problem can only be a lack of ability on the "problem solvers" behalf. It's OK not knowing everything about everything. It's not OK to hide your own shortcomings with fairy tales.

While that's certainly a possibility, sometimes users get fixated on non-existent equipment issues. Have you ever heard of PEBKAC? <grin>

In the automotive world it's a loose nut behind the wheel or a whining sound coming from the driver's seat. :laughing7:

 

[Cagey]

Right.

To be fair, often it's not that there isn't a problem, it's that the search for the cause may be focused in the wrong direction.

We had an issue here for a while where my roommate was convinced the new furnace wasn't right. Damn thing ran too much, and wasn't regulating the heat. Thing is, it works perfectly when she's not around. The temperature here is more regulated that it's ever been. It doesn't move by a degree (if you leave it alone), while the last one was all over the place. But, with this one, if she thinks it's been running too long, she'll crank the thermostat down. Then it'll get too cold, so she'll crank it back up. Constantly chasing the thing. Poor furnace thinks there's a nut case at the controls. Service guys started to think the same thing.

Finally, the 1,000 mile expert shows up and tells her: it's a 90+ efficient furnace, so the burners regulate. The blower may run longer, but the furnace itself isn't necessarily burning any more gas. It's actually burning a lot less. The thermostat is telling the thing how to keep the house on an even keel by turning different burners on/off, not turning the entire unit on/off. Blower runs no matter what if there's any burner on. So, it's not that there was anything wrong, but the perception was there.

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

The Tremol-no is a great device, but it is not essential to set up a trem or to get it to work correctly. It is designed to expand the possibilities of a floating trem, not to fix any particular problem. A malfunctioning, unproperly set up trem will have issues whether or not using a tremol-no.Also, +1 on the string retainer suggestion. The purpose of this bar is to lower the strings after the nut to seat them properly on the nut so that they are not moved by the downward pressure of the locking pads.

If the strings move when tightening the nut, lower it — just give a few turns to the two screws until you don't see the strings moving whan you lock the nut.

edit : well, the pictures posted by SustainerPlayer beat all explanations!

True, but it is as you said, a great add-on device that can simplify ongoing maintainence to an already well setup trem.  I go back & forth from freely floating, dive only in Drop D, or Hard Tail in Drop D.  In freely floating mode, you'd never know it's there.

 

[Cagey]

I've only had experience with the Tremsetter and Tremol-No, although there are other products out there that purport to do the same things. In both cases, I wouldn't give you a bottle cap of spit for either one.

The Tremsetter is supposed to stabilize your vibrato bridge, while the Tremol-no is suppose to lock it.

All the Tremsetter does is try to add a very narrow deadband to your bridge's travel. It behaves sorta like a "detent". If you get it adjusted perfectly, it sorta works. "Perfectly" being the operative word in that sentence. It's extremely difficult to get it there, and once it's there all it does is add a couple biased springs to something that's spring controlled and dependant on balance in the first place. Put it out of balance, and all bets are off.

All the Tremol-No does is lock your bridge so it doesn't move. Supposedly. The reality is if you have a moveable bridge, it's gonna move eventually whether you like it or not.

I've thrown examples of both of them in the trash, that's how much they're worth to me. Waste of money trying to fix a semi-non-existent problem that only exists because people inflict it on themselves.

If you want a hardtail, build a hardtail.

If you want a vibrato bridge that won't screw around, quit removing springs and do some forearm exercises so you can handle a few pounds of force. I suggest 12oz curls, with the pilsner of your choice.

I'm on record for not being impressed with Leo's mechanical design skills, but there's a reason there are 5 holes in the bridge block and 5 hooks on the claw: You need 5 springs for consistent return to neutral and to keep your picking palm from sharping the string load.

Put all the springs in place that are supposed to be there, and you'd be surprised at how consistent and well-behaved most vibratos can be. Contrary to popular belief, removing springs doesn't make the wang bar any easier to use. It's a balancing act. If you have 115 pounds of string pull, you need 115 pounds of spring pull. Whether you use one or twelve strings/springs doesn't matter. It's gotta balance. But, if you only use one, you're subject to the variations of that spring. It's a dictatorship. If you use 5, the load averages so it's like voting. Majority rules, and the main thrust is applied.

Devices like those remind me of high school, where most of the kids who had cars were usually in possession of their dad's hand-me-down, and couldn't afford to do the repairs most of them were overdue for like valve jobs, piston rings, etc. because they had a million miles on them. So, they bought these $2 miracle-in-a-can things to beg 1000 more miles out of those tired old engines/trannys before they were caught on the side of the road dead, or coax some miraculous chemical horsepower improvement. Never worked, of course, but hope springs eternal <grin>

 

[Cederick]

I don't know but I'm sure if the trem works good a Tremol-no cannot make it worse,

 

[Cederick]

Anyway I tuned my guitar before going to bed, played a few chords, didn't dare to use the bar.
All strings were green.

Woke up today and low E and A was a tiny slightly flat. Before doing anything else, is this a balancing issue with the springs?
Should I tighten the springs a bit again?

I'm sure if I bend the low E string it will tune down again. Come on, I was stretching that shit string for like 11 hours... yes I counted wrong yesterday, before actually quitting sitting with my guitar retuning ALL THE TIME I actually saw the time on my internet connection... Total waste of time.

 

[Strat Avenger]

The only Floyds worth having are the ones that don't "float".

Ask Eddie Van Halen if you don't believe me.

Better yet, a fixed bridge is the way to go for stable tuning.

 

[Updown]

:icon_scratch:  has the OP ever thought  :sign13:  of taking it to a proper guitar tech. For a proper setup.

It's sick, it needs the doctor to have a look at it.

 

[Cederick]

Of course I would have done that a long time ago  but I simply cannot afford it... :sad1:
All money I get from occasional album sales goes to people I have loaned money from since I've had no income for about 7 months now... Especially my girlfriend who needs money back from a $1500 custom guitar order (not warmoth) :sad:

 

[Cederick]

If the pole pieces aren't exactly the same in height can this cause something like this happening?

I think it's pretty much the same (it looks very straight) but I maybe have to take the bridge off and measure it

 

[Cederick]

I just took the bridge off to measure with a steel ruler and it seems like one of the poles was TINY lower

Så I made them the exact same height and guess what the guitar still goes out of tune!!!

 

[croquet hoop]

At this point it's becoming hard to help without seeing the thing. Cederick, could you take some (preferably close & in focus) pictures of the trem from various angles, and of the back cavity as well ?

And it is not necessary for the trem posts to be exactly the same height (otherwise the action would be a nightmare to setup since the saddles are not easily adjustable individually).

 

[Cederick]

Well actually after I made them the exact same height I eliminated the slight buzz coming from the low E string, all other strings were fine (I don't like too low action anyway)

Anyway, I will try to set it up again... I will try to intonate every string again and also make sure a second time every part is screwed hard.

Which leads me to say that I noticed the nut wasn't screwed very tightly from the back of the neck: I'm sure I screwed it tight when I first got the pieces together, but it might have loosened with time? Could that be a factor in the tuning instability? It wasn't so loose you could move it around but there was like 2-3 turns with each screw before it was tight

Will fix a few pictures soon!

 

[Cagey]

While you've got the bridge off (or at least the strings, it would be a good time to closely inspect the surfaces the string saddle contact surfaces to make sure there are no burrs on them.

 

[Cederick]

Unfortunately everythings back before I read that. What do you mean with burrs?

Anyway, I made a new intonation and made sure everything LOOKS right... Straight bridge, all screws tight (except the clamps which are "tight enough") and so on. Played for a while, sounds good. Add the arm, makes a deep divebomb and PAHAHAAAAAAAARGHHGHG!!  Low E sharp as hell again. The others are randomly either in tune or slightly over/under.

Don't mind the badly finished neck, it's my first try  :toothy11:

 

[Cagey]

What do you mean with burrs?

If the section of the saddle that the string rides on isn't smooth, then the string could hang up there. When you dive, the string relaxes. If it hangs up anywhere on the saddle, then when you release the vibrato the string will come back tighter, which will sharp it.

 

[Cederick]

Haha I thought you meant under the actual nut piece :toothy12:

But since it's totally new, could that even happen?

Or is it like the guy making comparisons to amphetamine ("not-even-once"), that I have damaged it by screwing the clamps on too hard once? ???

 

[Cagey]

It may be a manufacturing defect.

 

[Cederick]

Yeah but since it worked good with my first set of strings? (except low E sharpening haha)